You spelled 'controversial' wrong.

OK here goes..........

Message to all the rioters/looters in London ........... u wanna be big men and fight to the death , well get your sorry f**king little arses on the next plane to Afghanistan and stand alongside real men , they're called soldiers and they are fighting a war unlike you bunch of pathetic wastes of space!! .....

However, as a Brit, I am delighted with this community spirit:- http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article3119456.ece

David.

What is exactly happening in the UK? It makes the Greece riots look like a tame affair!

Scumbags using the opportunity to loot and burgle (although I'm not entirely convinced that's how you spell burgle), that's what.

This started out as a peaceful protest agaisnt the police accidentally shooting a teenager (instead of one of the other gangs shooting him).

I watched the footage of the looting this morning and was literally crying with rage and despair. The riots are just a diversion.

Judging from the BBC movie clips it is apparent that most of these rioters are "youths".  The parents need to take responsibility! Stop the children from participating in the demeaning events. 

Question is, how many of these young people have only a single parent? Quite in fashion, I hear.

"Project Mayhem" has begun.

In Tyler Durden we trust...

hey what did you expect ?

so for you solution for social frustration and misery is army?

What social frustration?

I say Tryky! You're so frightfully 'street' as I believe you young chaps say nowadays!

I guess growing up in South Central Lyon and having a career as a Banker in one of the wealthiest cities in the world and attending wine tasting events gives you real insight into what these jolly miffed chaps in London are going through!

Word.

(Crickey, even I can pretend to be 'with it'!)

It seems that the riot started in a very poor part of north London. Where unemployement is quiete high, specialy for youth. it s this social frustration I m talking about...

There is no such thing as a poor part of London, particularly north London.

Do you know Vaulx en Velin, Bron and Villeurbanne? Is it this south central Lyon you re talking about?

Here a video where I m from....

http://fr.euronews.net/2011/08/09/tottenham-les-raisons-de-la-colere/

I red here that Tottenham is " quartier défavorisé".

May be I should not trust journalist :)

Quite

You know now where I m from. will you judge me if we met?

I m a banker so far, it s not because I was succesfull in my career that I forgot where I m from.

And may be you re right to be scared now, I might be a schizoprhenic guy...

the 1st rule of the fight club you do not talk about the fight club

One should probably not trust information from people, whose job is to "angle" their stories, and who are on deadlines..

the trouble in the UK is disgusting...

@Leo, it seems you've manage to get us into a "contraversial" post, you clever little devil!

Everybody is shocked and disgusted with what is happening now in the UK and you don't have to be British to cry over it and to be angry.  But to pretend that the riots are just an excuse for looting is, in my opinion, an oversimplification or maybe "wishful thinking".  Let's not forget this started out with a peaceful protest.

.

This originally started 'because' of a teenager who was shot by police. it has now spread all over the UK in various cities. Being in the UK this week, i've been watching this on TV the last days and have seen gangs of teenagers breaking into various shops and walking out with flat screen TVs, DVDs, clothes and anything else they want. This has nothing to do with social or racial tension, its purely little shits whose parents don't care about their kids going out for some 'fun' and smashing up anything in their paths. As charlie said, absolutely disgusting. 

no successful protest is going to be peaceful - its them v us and to be honest they have strength but they dont have the heart

One thing you can say about the British...we like to fight

hell we spent most of the last centrury kicking Johnny Foreigner around to make a brazen empire

BBC News map with riot locations:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14462271

An article on the man (a 29 year-old) shot by police:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/london-riots-mark-duggan-inquest

Use of Blackberry messenger in riot looting:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-blackberry-messenger-looting?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

"What turns people into looters?"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14463452

As Charlie would write, "Opens bag of popcorn and sits back..."

My personal life and age have absolutely no relevance to my or anyone else's opinion of the shit that is happening in the UK and I find such personal insults offensive.

Very low, very low indeed.

I thought you had more integrity than that Dave.

Hey Guys take it easy....

Even if it s controversial post, we should respect each other and not attack personal life.

More to the claim about no part of London being poor...

"Combine understandable suspicion of and resentment towards the police based on experience and memory with high poverty and large unemployment and the reasons why people are taking to the streets become clear. (Haringey, the borough that includes Tottenham, has thefourth highest level of child poverty in London and an unemployment rate of 8.8%, double the national average, with one vacancy for every 54 seeking work in the borough.)"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/context-london-riots

Let me hasten to point out that I am only citing the above as some evidence that there is poverty in London.

Who the rioters are and the causes of the riot are other issues.

Even seagulls are protesting... in fairness theyre probably looting bags of doritos (cheese flavour) in protest against lower fish quotas in the Atlantic...

Damn this world is just going down hill.....

Cheer up everyone...

Okay, this is my last post on this subject, since this is making me too angry for more words.

Poverty is a relative thing and in the UK is measured by one person or family's standard of living compared with their neighbours'. London is one of the richest cities in the world and I therefore stand by my statement that there are no poor areas of London - only some less wealthy than others.

I am willing to bet that an overwhelming majority of adults in Haringey have luxuries such as mobile phones (on expensive contracts) and satelite or cable TV. This does not constitute poverty.

The priority of these so-called rioters is evident by the type of shops they choose to loot - jewellers, sports goods and electrical stores. TVs seem to be a particular favourite.

In the last 2 days 4 people have been killed and countless innocent people have been injured. One man yesterday was beaten senseless by these thugs simply for remonstrating with them for their criminal acts.

These gangs have been organised through Facebook and Twitter and on the streets have been controlled by leaders with loudhalers.

Anyone seeking to justify their actions is, in my book, guilty of abetting these murders and acts of cowardly violence (you will note from the pictures on TV that almost all have their faces covered or obscured).

To do anything other than condemn these people means that you sanction and approve of what they are doing, including the violence and murder.

 David, remember when you were yonger...

excellent!

They're protesting because they're "poor"... that's why they're texting each other with their wireless internet connection ultimate generation 2012 model Blackberries  and looting stores in empoverished parts of london (the same parts they come from, hurting their OWN neighborhoods!!) taking with them flat screen TV's, DVD's, video games, mac computers and all sorts of electronic gadgets!!!

The world is very unfair to them... see? it must be hard to not be able to have a convertible BMW and a rolex!!!!  (Now that I think about it, I don't have  a rolex either... let me go loot and protest and loot Globus because I am so poor and the world is so unfair to me!!!!  )

I think they're all filthy scum and I wish the London police was more like the LAPD in these type of situations!!!   They're noting but thugs taking advantage of a "proper" "humaine" police force that does not even use staser on their asses!

hilarious... i forgot, the streets are paved with gold,,, or is it rubber bullets now? i forget

a) Almost everyone on this thread has condemned the violence and rioting.

b) You make a blanket statement about no areas of London being poor and fail to provide any evidence to back it up.  When challenged on that statement, you fail in this a second time.

c) You then make statements saying essentially that any response other than yours amounts -- "in your book" -- aiding and abetting the violence and murder.

1) For your information, almost every major online UK newspapers are showing alleged looters without any face coverings

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/london-riots-detectives-police?intcmp=239

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8692793/Manchester-riots-Gangster-Dominic-Noonan-caught-on-film-during-Manchester-looting.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html

2) Poverty and Unemployment

And: nearly one in four children in London live in overcrowded conditions.

 http://www.londonspovertyprofile.org.uk/news/1-in-4-london-children-overcro/

http://www.londonspovertyprofile.org.uk/indicators/topics/work-and-worklessness/unemployment-in-london-by-age/

And you have London's mayor Boris Johnson (Mr. Bullingdon Club himself!) on BBCs radio 4 talking about "an endless sense of entitlement" and David Cameron's government cutting social services, well, what the hell do you think you are going to get?

Most people in these low-income areas are not rioting and many are trying to protect their neighborhoods.  

God forbid you should express as much anger at the bankers and their ilk who have robbed the UK economy as well as at the police who have taken payouts from Murdoch.

the rioting in london is nothing more than materialistic impluses overwhelming common sense. the real problems would be evident if they were stealing bread and water not jewellery and plasma

lock them up and throw away the key (although ideally not an english prison, seems like they would be able to break out of that too)

.

.

I'm with you all the way, Andy o... after all, these looters should remember, you take a bunch of tvs and bikes and stuff-- shoot them with rubber bullets--

You bring down a whole bank and throw people out of work and their houses for the bad loans you made to them-- a vacation villa in Spain...

Sounds absolutely fair to me...

There is one interesting development in the current situation.  Apparently vigilante groups are accepted by the police as being of great use to the community. 

Normally the police have condemned pople taking the the law into their own hands.  This time not one police officer has crticised the independent actons taken by the community.

Bring out the private armies

AS always there are people waiting for an excuse to cause trouble and the wonderful British plods seem to have presented them with the perfect opportunity by refusing to discuss the shooting of one person openly with the relatives.

I am not talking about whether the man was guilty or innocent, just pointing out the inability of the police to police. 

You are right, Andy o, this is what sometimes happens when looting occurs in the U.S.

http://www.propublica.org/nola/story/five-new-orleans-cops-convicted-for-their-role-in-post-katrina-shootings/

"Nearly six years after Hurricane Katrina tore through Louisiana, a federal jury today convicted five current or former New Orleans police officers in connection with the Danziger Bridge shootings, which occurred in the tumultuous aftermath of the storm. The shootings left two citizens dead and four others injured."

It's funny, I watch al jazeera (not sure how to spell it), and they were showing pictures of the looting!

in one of the pictures, they're looting a conveniece store in Hackney and the stands with food are intact, while the stands with alcohol and cigarettes are pretty much empty with looters fighting over them!!!

(maybe they're taking the whisky home to feed their children!)

Look at that front page of the Daily Mail and you'll see some young'uns making off wit' likker...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html

.... and on the 5th day?

on the 5th day of rioting the met force gave to me.... three broken ribs, two black eyes, three nike trainers, 2 gregs sarnies and a samsung hdtv

5 stolen rings

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/10/scottish-police-help-tackle-england-riots

The Scots are lending some of their police...

this is beyond a joke now

let them burn down their own cities... eejits!

I spent some time on some of the poorer estates in the UK( for reasons I can't go into) and would say the vast majority of the young men there  live fairly comfortably, in that they have Smartphones, Sky TV, designer clothes, and enough money for drink and recreational drugs. So by a broad definition this is not exactly hardcore poverty. Most of the looters seemed to be to turn up in cars too.

What a lot of them don't have is a job. the hope of a job, a good sense of moral values, education,literacy, numeracy, a sense of a worthwhile future.

They live in a society where aspirations seem to revolve around TV talent shows, winning the lottery, or becoming a gun toting drug dealer.A society where the police and other types of authority are either absent or not respected.A society that glorifies and sneers at celebrity.

So whilst I personally think that anyone  who loots generally has enough intelligence to know it's wrong. and that the police should act against these people in a visible and aggressive fashion, you have to say that  the fact that a large number of people are prepared to act in a criminal way does maybe say something about the world they inhabit.....

And yeah anyone caught looting should be shipped of to Iraqistan to clear mines and IEDs

so the answer to unemployment and lack of role models is looting?

I see your point Bruce,  however it is NO excuse

unemployment throughout Europe is rife but you don't see everyone else jumping on the looting bandwagon..people just accept their circumstances and do what they can do get on day by day

the british education, welfare, health system (at least in terms of being free) are "luxuries" compared to some other social systems and, if anything, police presence and community support incentives and charities are dealing with these people day in day out trying to help them escape this mindset and vistim mentality

, so why now? what really caused this?

one of the things i've noticed whilst watching all this unfold over the last few days is lots of blame on the police, government, schools, under-priveliged kids in low income areas blah blah blah but hardly anything on the parents. I've seen that some of these kids (and its now spread outside of london to manchester, birmingham and others) are as young as NINE. What kind of parent lets their 9 year old child out at night??? Not to mention the rest of the younger teens (i'm assuming the older ones are no longer under their parents' wing) who were running around in and out of shops as if it was some kind of giant disney land. Presumably they took all their new phones, dvds, games, clothes and televisions home once they were done at xxx am right? 

"Andrew- where did that brand new 32'' plasma screen come from?"

"uh... i found it outside"

"ah ok, well get ready for bed then"...

I stole mars bars as a kid and when i got found out got the biggest hiding of my life. Have these parents just completely relinquished their obligations and decided that the school and police can educate them in their stead? 

(aplolgies for the long rant!)

On the police:

There seems to be some evidence that the Met and the so-called Independent Police Complaints Commission are less than effective in dealing with policing the police.

"A total of 333 people have died in or following police custody over the past 11 years, but no officer has ever been successfully prosecuted, according to a watchdog's report."

And as was pointed out above, the spark that started all of this was the fact that police shot the 29-year old Mark Duggan while he was on his way home in a minicab to the estate where he lived. Duggan was declared DOA at the scene.  Police then proceeded to claim:

a) Duggan fired upon police -- this was wrong -- the bullet that hit a policeman's radio was from another policeman's gun;

b) That Duggan appeared to have been ready to fire upon police -- this was also wrong -- the apparent weapon was found in a sock.

Other notable incidents:

Death of Ian Tomlinson at the hands of a policeman at the G-20 summit;

Death of Jean Charles Menzes: killed instantly in July 2005 when hit by 7 bullets while pinned down by an officer. Crown prosecutor decides no charges to be filed. His family receives £100,000 and court costs only after a 4 year legal battle..

Top police officials apparently not telling the whole truth about vast numbers of people having their phones hacked.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/apr/12/police-truth-blair-peach-tomlinson

Of course not all the Met police are corrupt but there seem to be some very serious systemic problems.

the police are just the non armed or lightly armed part of the same system

banks > govts > army > police > everyone else

until people get rid of the first 3 theres no hope

the banks and bankers and their lackaeys in govt  have looted us FAR FAR more than these people letting off steam...you are ignoring the big picture TPTB want us to in-fight because it distarcts from the big picture

if we stopped the left right nonsense we can focus on those really in power pulling the strings

I feel like throwing bricks through some banks windows

People who join the police are control freaks or worse...

Power doesnt corrupt it just attracts people who want to corrupt it

"That Duggan appeared to have been ready to fire upon police -- this was also wrong -- the apparent weapon was found in a sock"

It wasn't an apparent weapon, it was a gun. Now what do you suppose he was going to do with that?

This kind of behaviour surfaces under the anonymity of big cities – would this happen in a small town ? – no way !

As to the parents of these hooligans, dad is probably glued to the TV getting full entertainment value watching some poor cop getting beat-up or some store getting its own back for having earned a profit.  Revenge is sweet it seems !

This day and age seems to be thriving on “gratuitous violence” because many folks can’t get their jollies doing something real, constructive and productive which gives them personal satisfaction.  Dad BTW is probably unemployed (and unemployable).  Mom is too ashamed to show her face and scared shitless of being thumped by dad if she did make a fuss.

Where have family values gone to ?

You cannot make an omelette without breaking a few eggs - its going to get worse people

Interesting that you think that people committing acts of violence should do it openly - LOL...Next you'll be wanting thieves not to wear gloves so they can leave fingerprints everywhere

Now if the looters can only direct this violence towards the real trouble makers...

Leo, might be time to chill out a bit, mate. You sound like you're one post away from a Bank letter-bombing campaign.

I wouldn't say that david thinks they did it openly. 

check the london police's website and you'll see hundreds of CCTV images of the looters' faces without balaclavas, bandanas or anything covering their faces! To coin Lindsey's previous diagnostic result- EEEDJUTS!!!!

"People who join the police are control freaks or worse...

Power doesnt corrupt it just attracts people who want to corrupt it"

i'd love to see a well written disertation justifying these comments.

Those "family values" -- to the exent they ever existed -- have gone down the drain with the rise and rise of the capitalist and consumerist society that values displays of wealth over every day people's concerns. Everything for profit! All for celebrity!

From the "Only Way is Essex" to Members of Parliament expenses scandals to banks and collateralized debt  to Rupert Murdoch's "News of the World" paying off the police to apparently extra-judicial shootings by the police to riots.

says it all..... 30 years ago

wow, and the award for sweeping generalisation of the week goes to...

me or him?

 if it's me you don't want to go there.....

letting off some steam?

millions of pounds paid by law abiding citizens to pay for the damage of these mindless thugs?

you obviously wouldn't  act though would you leo? one of those who is braver when sitting behind a computer screen

hit them where it hurts,in the ballot box (NOT a euphamism)

oh i think i may... but actually not you

i just saw you posted it last

and i have quite an interesting dissertation topic, about the greater good and utilitarian justifications for moral permissability of retribution

if something good comes out of these, can it then be argued that the rioting was a good thing to happen?

Well, one would have to calculate the probability of the chain of events leading to that "good thing" and determine whether it might possibly have happened without the riot.

Oh, so part of your moral code includes summary executions by the police? 

BTW, in case you don't understand English, an apparent weapon can be a gun.

And I guess we will never know what he would have done with it -- if anything -- as he was shot and killed by the police. 

Perhaps the police should have saved the taxpayers the cost of the bullets and subsequent investigation by the IPCC given, as you earlier stated, he would have been killed by another gangster.

You obviously have some problem with the concept of the presumption of innocence.

from what I have read about Mr Duggan, it seems he was a good 

"family man " and a "respected member of the community"

But I have also read he was a drug dealer. had children with different women, lived with a woman who had kids with another guy, and was a man who carried a weapon.

The fact was he was black so that therefore seems to allow both descriptions these days

Ah well, life's not so bad then

;D

Have you actually got anything constructive to say?

it's an interesting study in Human natue. I don't suppose you know about the riots in Montreal back in the 60s.

The police went on strike for 24 hours and within a few hours the city turned into a riot zone of anarchy and looting. Perhaps we humans are never too far from the savage within us

now now boys

don't make us call in the swiss guard, oh, wait,would that require a lapse in neutrality?! :P

Meanwhile in Leo's underground lair, his face lit by the glow of his computer screen, he watched the posts come in over the evening, cackling insanely to himself.

"That's right!" he gibbered, rubbing his hands gleefully, "Dance for me! Dance, my beauties! I've suceeded with my diabolical plan of pissing off everyone with my Kontrowvershall thread!" 

Did you really mean to write that final sentence?

i actually like this thread... shows that half-wits are international and not limited to the burning streets of london

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkKCb7uElcs&feature=fvst

wrong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hamKl-su8PE&ob=av3e

right....

So, should London still host the 2012 Olympics?

yeah totally.

 in London, for example. 95 % of gun crimes are by, or involve black people

   90% of drug crimes are by, or involve black people

  Black people there whinge that the police are racist because they target black people.

As far as I can see, the police are just targetting criminals

  If you can explain another logic to this then I would be happy to see it

well China executed roughly 1718 people in 2008, yet still hosted the Olympics

QED??

LOL if you say what you wrote in France, you go to justice

The French journalist Eric Zemmour learnt his lesson after he said:

"French immigrants are more closely monitored than others because most drug dealers are blacks or Arabs... It's a fact."

He lost his trial...

http://www.civilliberty.org.uk/newsdetail.php?newsid=1166

Could you please cite the sources for your "facts"?

could you tell us all where these "facts" came from

  i know mine are solid....   try google

 your's are not. i checked them. they are mere speculation. EG    deaths in Police custody you got from reading an article where you did not read more than 2 lines.....    let me ask you how much time you spent on The Projects , talking to people there. my guess would be less than 1 second

I didn't think you would be able to produce any sources.  I will research the Met statistics and report on them later.

On deaths in police custody and the IPCC, see here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/03/deaths-police-custody-officers-convicted

"A total of 333 people have died in or following police custody over the past 11 years, but no officer has ever been successfully prosecuted, according to a watchdog's report.

Prosecutions were recommended against 13 officers based on "relatively strong evidence of misconduct or neglect", but none resulted in a guilty verdict.

Calling for further research, the Independent Police Complaints Commission said juries were unwilling to convict police officers. Len Jackson, IPCC interim chair, said: "It is clear to us there is some real difficulty in this area."....

Out of the total of 333 deaths, 87 people had been restrained, most commonly being physically held down by officers. In 16 of those cases, restraint was linked directly to the death, and four were classed as "positional asphyxia".

The majority were from natural causes, with nearly three-quarters relating to drug or alcohol abuse. The report questioned whether those arrested for being very inebriated should be taken to alternative facilities, such as the "drunk tanks" introduced in Scotland. It called on the Home Office and Department of Health to pilot facilities with medical care to replace police cells.

Those who died in custody were mostly white (75%), male (90%) and aged between 25 and 44.

The number of deaths each year had fallen from 49 in 1998-99 to 15 in 2008-09, slightly increasing to 17 last year.

Inquest, the independent organisation working to reform investigation into contentious deaths, said the findings were "depressingly familiar".

"The study points to alarming failures in the care of vulnerable detainees suffering from mental health, drug and alcohol problems, many of whom should have been diverted from police custody," said its co-director, Deborah Coles."

Letter from a Commissioner

"It is foolish and misleading of the IPCC to fall back yet again on the myth of juries being unwilling to convict police officers (333 deaths in custody, but no officers convicted, IPCC finds, 3 December) when there is no evidence at all to support this proposition but plenty of evidence that the CPS mounts inappropriate prosecutions which effective legal defence teams then expose and juries rightly decline to convict on. Where officers are pursued for serious crimes – such as the Northumbria officer convicted of rape – including corruption, juries have no difficulty in convicting. But officers are prosecuted far too often for failures in performance of their duties – where other public servants in comparable situations would never face criminal charges – while they too often avoid being disciplined or dismissed for poor performance or incompetence.

The IPCC also fails to report its one case of a successful prosecution: a police officer was convicted and jailed, in March 2007, following a suicide in Derby police station, an investigation I supervised.

John Crawley

Commissioner, IPCC, 2004-08

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/15/police-deaths-custody-ipcc-juries?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/15/police-deaths-custody-ipcc-juries?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

@bruce lawson:

"yeah totally. In London, for example. 95 % of gun crimes are by, or involve black people 90% of drug crimes are by, or involve black people

Black people there whinge that the police are racist because they target black people.  As far as I can see, the police are just targetting criminals

If you can explain another logic to this then I would be happy to see it"

Here are the facts:

From Wikipedia:

Figures from the Office for National Statistics showed that in 2007 an estimated 10.6 percent of London's population of 7,556,900 were black.[28]

 Evidence shows that the black population in London boroughs increases with the level of deprivation, and that the level of crime also increases with deprivation, such that "It is clear that ethnicity, deprivation, victimisation and offending are closely and intricately inter-related".[29]

In June 2010 The Sunday Telegraph, through a Freedom of Information Act request, obtained statistics on accusations of crime broken down by race from the Metropolitan Police Service.[n 2] 

The figures showed that the majority of males who were accused of violent and sexual crimes (including those subsequently acquitted) in 2009–10 were black.

Of the recorded 18,091 such accusations against males, 54 percent accused of street crimes were black; for robbery, 59 percent; for gun crimes, 67 percent; and for sexual offences, 32 percent.[30]

Street crimes include muggings, assault with intent to rob, and snatching property. Black males accounted for 29 percent of the male victims of gun crime and 24 percent of the male victims of knife crime.[30] Similar statistics were recorded for females. On knife crime, 45 percent of suspected female perpetrators were black; for gun crime, 58 percent; and for robberies, 52 percent.[31]

Operation Trident was set up in March 1998 by the Metropolitan Police to investigate gun crime in London's black community after black-on-black shootings in Lambeth and Brent.[32]

Between April 2005 and January 2006, figures from the Metropolitan Police Service showed that black people accounted for 46 percent of car-crime arrests generated by automatic number plate recognition cameras.[33]

In London in 2006, 75% of the victims of gun crime and 79% of the suspects were "from the African/Caribbean community."[34

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_Kingdom

Whatever you learned in The Projects, it certainly wasn't statistics or any kind of basic research that took you any further than your prejudices.

Oh, I forgot... Q.E.D.

One further note of caution on the above figure which are also cited in this article in the Telegraph link below.

"The figures relate to those “proceeded against”.

This includes those prosecuted in court, whether convicted or acquitted; those issued with a caution, warning or penalty notice; those the Crown Prosecution Service decided not to charge; and those whose crimes were “taken into consideration” after a further offence."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7856787/Violent-inner-city-crime-the-figures-and-a-question-of-race.html

"Here are the facts"

  as in here is  what i read from the pages that google allow me to see.

 but that's another story

I am not and have never been a policeman in the Uk but I do know quite a lot about there procedures

In the case of Mr Duggan..... there was never an involvement of an ARU but there was obvious intelligence that he was in possesion of a loaded firearm, hence the recommendation that Officers in pursuit of him should be allowed to carry sidearms. 

I believe that the weapon found next to him had a bullet in the top chamber. I don't know about you, but when you are in the vicinity of a person who is armed and possibly pointing the weapon at you  it's generally a good idea to shoot first and ask questions afterwards

As to your " facts " about deaths in police cusody....i believe 33 a year, if you factor in those that died in car chases, but are included in the statistics, and you include those that were arrested whilst under the influence of drinks, drugs etc, and those that had been in a serious fight, you end up with a lower death rate than in the average population on any given year. The UK has a pretty good justice system so maybe the fact that no Officer was ever prosecuted could be seen as a sign that they were innocent not as you seem to suggest that they were guilty but got off  due to corruption etc...

 The figures I quoted about gun crime in the UK come from the police's own admissions, but you have to look a bit harder than " google" to find these

it's not a bad thing to admit that most gun crimes in the UK involve black people. it's facing up to a reality. not making some kind of statement about the morality of different ethnic groups. I, like a lot of people , realise that this statistic says more about the failure of our society than it does about racial prejudice

The problem with the police "story" is that the "facts" keep changing. First they said he shot at them. Then they admitted he hadn't. If the weapon was found in a sock, how was it that he was claimed to have been about to fire upon them?  I also cited the other cases involving the apparently unlawful killing of Menzies (a Brazilian electrician) and Ian Tomlinson as examples of how the police continually change their story.

On the issue of the police and the IPCC, as you can read, I cited quotes from the actual report issued by the Commissioners and included a further note from a commissioner.  Members of the IPCC themselves admitted in their report that there are problems.

Every community has to face up to crime that erodes it and kills its members. We have many of the same issues in the US.  

But it does no one any good to exaggerate statistics that even the Met won't comment upon because they know how incomplete the picture is.

As for Google: it is fine up to a point.  Having gone to university and studied at the graduate level long before the advent of this wonderful search engine, I certainly know how to find primary sources.

In London, "about 80 per cent of gun crime took place in the black community [...] worse than that: 80 per cent was black on black gun crime, and that of the remaining 20 per cent about 75 per cent involved at least one black person: black shooting white, or white shooting black"

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/katharinebirbalsingh/100099830/these-riots-were-about-race-why-ignore-the-fact/

Thanks to Reka for posting this.

Translator - It's interesting that you also thanked Reka, bearing in mind that in the article the police are criticised for not doing enough when all of your posts criticise the police for doing too much.

Who'd want to be a policeman!

Incidently, you keep posting articles from The Guardian, which is the most overtly left-wing paper in the UK and reknowned for it's overly liberal views, that have contributed greatly to current society where parents are not allowed to discipline their children and teachers are summarily dismissed for doing the same. This has led to a whole generation that believe that they can pretty much do whatever they want without any reprisals. Fast forward to the indiscriminate looting and firebombing of innocent people's homes and businesses.

Doing too much or killing too much? Sorry, but even in the UK, summary executions by the police are against the rule of law. 

Ah, so the Guardian is at fault for the overly  permissive -- er, um "no-strings attached" society? Hahahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Every Guardian article I quote has a back-up source of information in it. I also cited the Daily Telegraph as well as the Daily "Hate" Mail for photos of alleged looters.

Oh, I forgot, the Guardian also broke and consistently reported on the Murdoch hacking scandal that has led to several resignations amongst the top Met officials.  

But ---oh wait -- here's the venerable BBC!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14468957

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14459516

on IPCC admitting that Duggan did not fire upon police

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14197993

IPCC investigating Met corruption

Try arguing with some facts, dude...

ETHIOPIA. The African Union today adopted a unilateral resolution to deploy army troops and care packages to England as looting and violence spread from London to other major cities. Spokesperson Charity Khumalo said “We can no longer stand by while these savages tear themselves apart.”

The AU, meeting today in an emergency session to discuss the ongoing rioting in the UK, has declared that they will do “everything in their power to help bring civilisation to England”.

“It’s just so sad, you know?” said Khumalo, speaking from the organisation’s HQ in Addis Ababa. “Sitting here and watching them on TV while their society implodes. We cannot in good conscience remain idle and let it happen.”

The AU has announced a range of initiatives that Africans can get involved with to help alleviate the misery of the English.

“For instance, we have launched an ‘Adopt an English child’ programme,” Khumalo explained, showing journalists brochures featuring the faces of English kids. “If you donate a mere R50 a month, you can see to it that sweet little Johnny from Peckham receives a basic education, a pack of condoms and a pair of pimpin’ Nikes.”

Khumalo also said that the AU would be parachuting in dentists along with army troops as part of a ‘Feel better about yourselves, Brits!’ initiative.

“You can understand why they’re turning on each other,” the spokesperson told journalists. “You look in the mirror and you see teeth untouched by modern dentistry. It’s heartbreaking enough to make anyone put a brick through a Starbucks.”

The organisation also plans to air-drop care packages on major UK cities.

“Vegetables, mainly,” Khumalo confirmed. “We’re sending them vegetables and toothpaste.”

The AU’s flagship event, however, will be a star-studded rock concert to be held in Johannesburg, with all proceeds going towards the establishment of mobile libraries around the UK. Artists ranging from Mafikizolo to Steve Hofmeyr have pledged to perform at the show.

“As a humanitarian, it’s the least I can do,” Hofmeyr said yesterday. “I look at those photos of the adorable little beasts knifing each other in fights over looted X-Boxes and I want to hug them and give them a nice hot cup of Milo.”

Meanwhile, the week’s events have seen terrified South Africans in London and Manchester packing their bags for home.

“This country is going to the dogs, dude,” said Werner du Preez, a gap-year student from Johannesburg. “I’ve been offered a nice little two-bedroom place in Hillbrow where I can feel safe again.”

On the 5th day of rioting my chav-love sent to me;
5 stolen rings!!
4 Apple iPhones,
3 Nike trainers
2 cans of Stella
and a widescreen hdtv

Here they come,
running down the street,
with the latest tv and,
a new three piece suite,

hey hey its the junkies!

RIP Broken Britain.. You went soft on discipline!.. You went soft on immigration!You went soft on crime.. Parents were told.. 'No you can't smack the kids'....Teachers were prevented from chastising kids in schools.. The police couldn't clip a troublemaker round the ear.. Kids had rights blah blah blah.. Well done Britain..You shall reap what you sow..

Have to laugh at people who are against smacking. My parents sometimes smacked me when I was naughty.. . I didn't hate them.. I didn't have trust issues with them because of it... I didn't fear them... But I darn sure respected them! And I learned what my boundaries were, and knew what would happen if I broke them I wasn't abused, I was disciplined....SINCE WE TOOK THIS SOFT APPROACH LOOK WHAT HAPPENED TO OUR COUNTRY & YOUNGSTERS

All those caught rioting/looting should be given a free haircut(short) a free uniform(camoflauge/khaki) & a free plane ticket(one way) to the holiday resort of Afghanistan. There they can smash up & set fire to anything they want & more importantly replace the real heroes who can return home to there loved ones !!

...... just a small portion of Facebook postings currently doing the rounds in the UK.

Not a single one condoning the looters, not a single message of sympathy for their so-called cause. Only condemnation.

There is penty of support for the police, who are under-staffed, underpaid and overworked.

This is the genral sentiment of the overwhelming majority of honest, hard-working patriotic Brits.

Oh, and by the way.....

... this is one of those murderous racist policemen.

Seems all the looters weren't all from broken homes or the underclass....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8694655/UK-riots-grammar-school-girl-is-accused-of-theft.html

Dude, you've totally lost it. Chill.

Afghanistan is a mess because of your country and the superpower alliance's foreign policy...don't be so insensitive to a country that has completely been destroyed thanks to these policies.

Hey, here's a thought:

one can be against the looters and police brutality/corruption...

David - I wish I never started this by asking.  You made some excellent points...and you know what else.  At least you been genuine and caring towaards your country.

As for the pathetic responses of some posters (and you know who you are), go back to your drab and miserable lives. You dont even deserved to be dignified by being replied to. 

To wit:

Yes, I saw that in the Guardian...but didn't dare post it...

Sorry, I'm a bit pumped up due to arguing with those robbing b*astards at Holmes Place, who are trying to charge me an extra month subscription for cancelling my membership.

I need that money to have my turbo adjusted on my Aston Martin. I've been forced to use my TVR for the last 2 weeks.

Right, I'm off to lunch before the champers gets warm

It's funny how we seem to be pigeonholed by the papers we read.

I enjoy the Telegraph, so that must make me an Upper Class toff with right wing views.

Translator, as a Guardian reader obviously is therefore a bleeding heart liberal

David Lloyd must be a Daily Mail reader :-)

Stragely though, in reality it is possible  to have wide spectrum political views.

this thread was pointless at the start and we have fallen for the bait

we are in a country where the standard of life is exceptional, and, sadly in these times, very rare

we all have different upbringings, views and skin colours, what makes us different is that we can use these to open the eyes of others and establish more tolerance

i come from a city where when people ask you how you spell your name or what school you went to is a way of questioning whether i am, in fact, catholic or protestant so they can judge me accordingly

wise up people... we all end up in the same place

some just have a nicer post code for a while :)

I'd love to know where I can get the turbos adjusted on my Aston Martins for the price of  1 months membership at Holmes Place

As for "robbing B*stards"... what else would you expect in Switzerland? :-)

I hope some Glocals member from Afghanistan reads your post and replies to you in the "patriotic" way you seem to like so much.

You're right... All those drug dealers and rioters should be sent to Afghanistan to help the war effort

"Officially, the Americans are working hard to stamp out heroin production in Afghanistan, but in reality they, namely the CIA, are using the proceeds from the drug trade, including the illegal drug traffic to Kosovo from Afghanistan"

http://www.londonpatriot.org/2010/06/08/report-u-s-uses-kosovo-to-transit-afghan-narcotics-to-europe/

Hmmm, that is a BNP website...

"a whole generation that believe that they can pretty much do whatever they want"

yes, see the video...

and that is exactly what we're seeing on the streets of London and other cities. These kids obviously lack education, morals and values and have no idea what earning a life (BY WORKING HARD) is, probably their parents are clueless too. Now people can call these actions whatever they want but this is not a protest, these are a bunch of criminals taking advantage of an unfortunate situation.

David & David -

I deleted posts from both of you in which you insult each other.

Keep it clean or keep away.

Oded

why bother:?

  if two Davids want to go head to head without Goliath then do you really think it might damage your "groupon style " image?

30% says it won't :-)

..... but he started it Sir