As someone who has physical impairment and can’t jump out of the way of reckless cyclists who ignore a red light, I couldn’t agree more.

I presume you are aware that cyclists have their own red/yellow/green stop lights?

http://martouf.ch/utile/images/divers/2010_06_30_09_58_feu_rouge_pour_velo.jpg

The light you are mentioning at Place des Nations has this type of light. Most intersections in the city center do too.

(That is not to say that the cyclist you are complaining about did not run the cyclist-specific light, but I have found that most people who complain about cyclists running red lights do not realize how cycling in Geneva actually works.)

Andy are you assuming the cyclist will be on Glocals reading the forums? 

Yes I am aware of the cyclist lights.  And: no - they do not have preference over adjoining pedestrian lights.  A lot of cyclists here seem to misunderstand this.

I have no problem with cyclists going carefully through red lights as I understand very well that it can be safer than setting off at the same time as the rest of the traffic.  Going through at full speed clearly has nothing to do with safety.  This was just selfish impatience.

He may be able to read, but I know I'm being optimistic.

At least he had neon green on so you could spot him  If it’s the hill going past the Intercontinental hotel it’s the perfect place to pick up some momentum ;-) At least you were sprightly enough to jump out of the way 

Yes - it's that hill.  A lot of cyclists come down there faster than the cars, including the guy yesterday.

And I agree about the neon green.  It's helpful when people dress in a way that saves you the trouble of working out what sort of person they are.

The light had been red for a while, in fact I rushed a little so as not to miss the green pedestrian light, which is why I was caught out.  A few yards away I looked left up the hill and saw that the only thing approaching was a cyclist some way off.  When I reached the crossing I looked again and realised he wasn't slowing down just as I was stepping off the curb and had to quickly withdraw (thus proving the usefulness of a catholic upbringing).

I understand about the whole not wanting to lose momentum thing when it comes to cars etc in bike lanes, having spent years commuting by bike myself in the past, but this wasn't that.  In any case, would any sane person extend that logic to not slowing down for major junctions?

Its the same logic that causes some cyclists to run a red light when cars are crossing the intersection. It happens at least once a week. A car crosses an intersection and out of nowhere a cyclist crosses the road in front of it. An accident waiting to happen.

Especially when the cyclist does not wear a helmet but listens to whatever with headphones. 

@Yan S

Just to clarify my comment from the premise, it is NOT made to start a war between car drivers and cyclist.

That being said, I don't know if you drive a car often in Geneva downtown, but let me tell you that this is not an enjoyable experience, especially when you have do so on a regular basis. Some cyclists (and I insist on the "some") have to understand that despite the fact that I have no problem with them, I don't have 4 pairs of eyes and don't necessarily see them when they run a red light, pass me on my right, or go threw the intersection with absolutly no respect for any priority whatsoever. They should not expect us to be always aware of what they are about to do, we simply can't. 

Of course the same logic apply to car drivers not using their indicators. Those are properly irresponsible in a city with that much cyclists, scooters and bikes.

RE: who has priorities:

Definitely true that cyclists with green cyclist lights do not have priority over pedestrians with green pedestrian lights.

But cyclists have a small 1/4 of a lane to use, which pedestrians can when possible avoid blocking if they see a cyclist coming. You have the right of way, but as a courtesy you don't need to exercise it necessarily.

RE: stopping at red lights:

If a cyclist has a green cyclist light at a time when the car traffic light is red, they do not need to stop at the intersection whatsoever. This is something that a lot of people in Geneva don't seem to realize when criticizing cyclist behavior - but I see that you are aware of this.

If a cyclist is truly running a red light (both car traffic light + cyclist light = red), they are truly utterly stupid if they do not at least stop at the light (like a 'stop sign') before proceeding through the intersection.

At the intersection you are talking about, it would be especially stupid to truly run that red light, because if you are zooming down the Route de Ferney you will be that much more difficult to spot by any cars you are about to get in the way of. (Not to mention possibly hitting a pedestrian, like what almost happened to you.)

As a cyclist 5 days per week (motorist on weekends), I am inclined to agree with you...

...but I can't agree that someone should approach the red light at Place des Nations coming from the hill at Route de Ferney at high speed to avoid using brakes + save power.

If you are going to run a red light and break the traffic law, you should always at the very least be stopping at the red light, looking around + proceeding only when you are sure that the intersection is empty.

(If the cyclist in this story was not really running the red light, but actually had the green cyclist light, the story is a bit more messy and more difficult to evaluate.)

Are you 100% sure that the green cyclist light was not on?

I don't doubt you, I only ask because, if 'the light had been red for a while' and you had to 'rush a little so as to not miss the green pedestrian light', that is the exact timing when the green cyclist light would come on, prior to the green traffic light for cars.

I'm a bit confused. I've been driving in this city for 10 years and haven't seen many instances of what you are describing - cyclists running red lights in front of me.

(As mentioned above, it is important to differentiate between times when cyclists look like they are running a red light, but actually are allowed to drive due to the green cyclist light, vs. truly running red lights.)

Any cyclist who blames a motorist for almost hitting them, when they are in the wrong, are certainly 'assholes' as described by Yan above. The few times I have almost caused my own accident while riding a bike, I raised my hand to apologize to the driver - that is the only polite thing to do.

Other points:

* Cyclists are supposed to pass you on your right. Unless you are indicating that you are about to do a right turn.

Speaking of which....

* Car drivers in Europe and especially Geneva never use their indicators. This really pisses me off when I'm driving, and of course it is even worse + more dangerous when you are trying to cycle and cannot predict what cars are about to do.

I have a feeling Oliver is that bike rider (I'm kidding guys, jus kidding!)

Seriously tho: I sometimes see bike riders in town riding in ways that are super dangerous to themselves and to others. But I also see car drivers doing the same...

And let’s not start on pedestrians on their dangerous walking 

I *always* use my indicators. For *every*thing. Even on the highway at 23:00 when there is no car in sight, ahead of me or behind. And when I do, I gently change lanes, make my turn, I don't jerk from lane to lane as if going sideways.

I know I'm extreme, but it's the *only* form of communication that car drivers have so I'm always surprised when people don't use it, regardless of the situation.

Yes and cyclists are also supposed to indicate every change of directions with their arm, pass motor vehicules on the right only when they have enought space and don't have the right to dodge through the traffic. And don't tell me they are all following the law.

If you have never seen a cyclist running a red light then I should lent you one of my 4 pairs of eyes :p.

Let's be serious a minute here. It's not like cyclists are dangerous for the drivers, it's just that despite all the efforts you make, it's getting incredibely hard to be aware of everything surrounding your car, especially when you have cyclists, motorcycles and scooters passing by all sides. I'm not making excuses here, but being right don't always mean the guy in front of you has seen everything. 

I am not saying that all cyclists act recklessly but keep mind that despite the law, it's a human driving the big polluting thing in front of you there is a good chance that he will make a mistake. 

All I'm saying is that some cyclists should really pay more attention to what they are doing. 

Recently, in the UK there was a backlash due to a cyclist knocking off a toddler on a pavement. The situation which occurred in the UK was different from the one described by Andy, but it raised a huge debate about cyclists behaving inappropriately towards pedestrians.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11620983/Toddler-knocked-by-hit-and-run-cyclist-is-dragged-along-pavement.html

Andy's post was about an incident involving a cyclist and a pedestrian. I find it peculiar that many contributors shifted the focus of the discussion to cardrivers and cyclists.

Cyclists are behaving more and more recklessly and aggressively towards pedestrians - no excuses.

It’s my experience too that cyclists are a menace.  Motorists, bikers, even scooterists often stop to let me walk on a pedestrian crossing.  But then a crazy cyclist will then brush past me, not only behind but even in front of me while I’m actually on the yellow lines.

And if ever I’m badly hurt because a cyclist has knocked me down, he’ll most probably not be insured or have any wherewithal to pay any compensation for injury or damage.

That said, some cyclists are courteous and law-abiding, young women especially, but they’re very few and far between.

Point #4 of your first post? 

Ugh. I just realized my mistake (and the lack of an edit button on glocals) - I meant Andy, not Yan. Sorry about that. 

I'm the same when driving. I might be wrong about it being cultural, but I feel like learning to drive in the US led to me being very correct about that kind of thing. Not because American drivers are "better", but because if you're a 18-22 year old in the US you need to obey all traffic laws, or else the police will pull you over as an excuse to search you for drugs or see if you've been drinking. So if you forget to use indicators, the police say "we thought that was suspicious" and pull you over. But that's another story.

I can only repeat: if you think cyclists are constantly "running red lights", it is almost certainly because they are following the smaller cyclist traffic lights that are showing green.

Cyclists do ignore traffic signals and break the rules, absolutely, but if you are seeing it happen all the time, it is likely a misunderstanding rather than a flagrant culture of reckless behavior.

(Do you also have the impression that the TPG buses and taxis are constantly "running red lights" too? lol)

Haha, very perceptive. 

But yeah, I feel suited to this discussion (which is why I've rarely posted on Glocals forums before, but have made like 20 posts on this discussion already) because I've lived in Geneva since 1992.

From 1992 to 2004 I was a pedestrian on a daily basis. 

From 2004 to 2009 I was usually on my feet, occasionally driving.

From 2009 to 2013 I was usually driving, sometimes cycling.

From 2013 to now I have been usually cycling, driving on weekends. 

My views are as subjective and flawed as anyone elses, but the point I'm making is, I have seen this city for 23 years and experienced it from all perspectives - cyclist motorist pedestrian.

This is why I find it so strange when people complain about cyclists breaking rules and being dangerous, when I observe the exact opposite - that cyclists are endangered by cars (or blocked by pedestrians not paying attention and walking into the street without looking both ways) more often than the other way around. 

When cycling I see plenty of examples of cyclists stopping at red lights, looking both ways and then cautiously ignoring the red light - but I do not see people zooming through red lights without stopping, which is what the pedestrians and drivers here are alleging. This is why I feel there is a misunderstanding about which traffic laws the cyclists are supposed to be following - because yes, if the light is red for cars but is green for cyclists, the cyclist will certainly not stop at the red light and it would look like (to those uninformed) the cyclist had just zoomed through a red. 

I'm probably annoying people by harping on about cyclist traffic lights, but I figure the more I rant about them, the more people will become aware of them and the less they will complain abouat cyclists. Maybe they'll even stop running us over...

Ritchie: cyclists are allowed to pass AROUND you while you are on the yellow lines, just like cars are. That is how the traffic lights are designed to work for both cars and bikes for most of the right turns in this city, other than specific intersections where pedestrians are given 10-15 seconds of uninterrupted crossing. 

Of course, if they are passing you so close to you that they literally 'brush' you, that is something else + I can totally understand the annoyance.

Oliver: that's not accurate legally. When a pedestrian is crossing on a pedestrian crossing (the famous "yellow lines"), all other traffic needs to wait till the pedestrian finished crossing. That includes bikes and cars

just because you didnt see it yourself, it doesnt mean it never happens. its true that sometimes the light is red for cars and green for cyclists. At that time, yes of course cyclists have the right of way.

But when both lights are red, your light is green and you cross the intersection, and suddenly a cyclist zooms in front of you coming from the left (or right, both happened) the cyclist is being an idiot with a death wish

And an idiot with a death wish for others.

I hope that now you've written this down you can see how wrong it is.

Pedestrians have the right of way on crossings and, as Nir points out, the law is that other road users must wait until all pedestrians are completely clear of the crossing before proceeding.  Pedestrians have the right to cross half-way, pause, turn back the way they came then change their mind again and turn back to continue crossing if they want to. 

This may sound unlikely or unreasonable, but what about a parent trailing young children, or a forgetful elderly person, or someone with dogs, or someone who drops something and doubles back to pick it up?  If you are attempting to "share" the crossing with them you will have a collision and it will be your fault, both morally and legally.

Yes; it was me.  Though I wasn't "describing" him as an asshole; he demonstrated that he was an asshole and I was just reporting the facts.

Just to clarify: you're not being extreme.  The law says that indicators must always be used, even if nobody's in sight, and this for two very good reasons:

1) it sets a conditioned reflex before doing a turn

2) you might not see anybody, but there could be someone on the road that you did not see -- for instance, a cyclist asshole wearing black clothes or with no lights; also, someone could approach before you finish your maneuver.

Someone wrote a few posts back: "Bikes have rights to pass you on your right or left" ... can anyone confrm that it is true? if so, are cars obliged to give way to bikers before turning right? Or can they turn right if biker is far enough to be safe, even if that may mean that the biker needs to brake?

Legally bikers may have preference, alright ... but I think that it is kind of stupid to risk your biker life just because you may have preference ... in case of accident, it's mostly the biker's life that is at stake, a car driver is risking much less (well, economic and legal trouble, sure, but not his life).

If a cyclist (or motorcyclist or scooterist) passes on the left or filters between cars this is legal but considered at their own risk.  (It's often defined legally as "shared risk", which is slightly different, but not important here.)

If a cyclist is to your right then of course you must give way to them before turning right.  If they have to brake suddenly then you haven't done it safely.

I didn't say it never happens - I said that I hear people complaining about it all the time, but see it very rarely. Whereas I do see, all the time, cars almost hitting cyclists by not paying attention, or pedestrians jay-walking without looking both ways + almost blocking cyclists with 0 time to react. 

As for paragraph #2, yes, 100% agreed.

Was this supposed to be funny? 

Nir: I appreciate the information - particularly because there is literally 0% chance of any police ever pulling someone over for doing this, so the only way to find out would be to find out on your own or being told. 

Question, however: 

Are you saying that if a pedestrian is crossing a multilane (for example, 4 lanes, 2 lanes each direction) street, that no cars are allowed to cross the yellow lines until all pedestrians are clear of the yellow crosswalk? If you see my point, if that is the case + were strictly applied, the streets of Geneva would be in permanent gridlock. 

This would seem to be one of the many rules in Switzerland that cannot be enforced, for practical reasons. (And if a rule or law is never applied + can never be applied...)

I trust you feel the same about cars? I was counting earlier while driving how many times it happened in a 20 minute span - but I lost count. 

Oliver:

I don't know what the law says about multilane crossing. 

Certainly not.  If I had meant it to be funny I would have put a joke in it.

Think we had a miscommunication - I was envisaging multilane roads in the above hypothetical situations. 

Just for the record, at 6 o’clock this evening I was crossing route de Frontenex on the yellow lines at the 31 décembre intersection.

No problem, think I.  Green light, cars all obediently lined up and no cyclists in sight when three skate-boarders whizz by in front of me.  Naturally, no lights, no bells, just some shrieking …

Blankety blank, there’s no way one can win in this wicked world.

Hope nevertheless that everyone has a good Sunday.

R.

I don't know of any country where ignorance is a valid defence in traffic / road law, so it is your responsibility to some research before using the roads in an unfamiliar country, rather than waiting to be told.

A defense would only be needed if this action (going around a pedestrian on a yellow crosswalk while driving or cycling, when both have the right to proceed) was something that people were ever pulled over for, or charged with. As this does not occur, it is only a traffic law in theory, not in practice. And this country is not unfamiliar to me, I'm Swiss and have lived here for 23 years. Hence the surprise. I've grown up watching people do this. I'm far from a perfect cyclist+driver, but this is culturally accepted in my experience.

They don't "both have the right to proceed", as I think we've already established.

I agree that it's culturallly accepted here (along with cars jumping red lights, crossing solid white lines, chatting on the phone while driving, etc) and the police tend not to stop people for it, but where the law comes into play is when there is a collision involving injury and / or damage, at which point "common practice" is also not a valid defence.

Several mentions have been made of the green cyclists light.  This is never on when the pedestrian light is green - that would be ridiculous.  Another small point - although occasionally I pass ared light (but after having slowed down) I have more or less stopped when OI caught myself doing the same thing when driving

How unfortunate that tthere are not more courteous, law-abiding young women around.

Since we're on anecdotes...

Three weeks ago I was cycling to a school in Lancy at 8am, guy in mini-suv was waiting to pull out of a side-street, but his nose was out in the cyclce lane. I deviated and as I was cycling past, he accelerated 30cm and stopped, just to make me change my underwear.

If a pedestrian is crossing a multi-lane street, all cars have to stop and give way to the pedestrian; yes, even the cars on the lane opposite to the side from which the pedestrian started crossing. Except if there is an "island" in the middle of the street, in which case cars on the opposite lane don't need to stop, because each half of the pedestrian crossing is considered a single crossing.

https://www.tcs.ch/fr/test-securite/securite-routiere/nos-routes/passages-pietons.php

Yes, it is, just as it happens with car green lights (ie. on right turns.) It even occurs at this particular intersection (I checked yesterday.) 

Different things are culturally accepted to different degrees. For example, it does happen that people get pulled over and ticketed for talking on the phone while driving. And while it's accepted to park on the sidewalk here (how weird is that?!), you can only get away with it for so long. 

Whereas going around a pedestrian who is using a different portion of the crosswalk is something that seemingly has a 0% chance of any punishment. (A collision is, by definition, not 'going around a pedestrian'.)

Most cyclists are jackasses (ok, polite way: behave in an inappropriate manner ignoring all rules), cars drivers tend to be jackasses to cyclists too, and sometime pedestrians too. Fair, no? Not really constructive though.

I've been cycling to work almost everyday for 7 years, 5 in France and 2 years in Switzerland. I consider myself carefull, and try to abide by code de la route. Anyway an infinite number of times I ended up rattling over car drivers. Bicycles lanes are often blocked (though the situation is way better in Switzerland) - a lot of car drivers don't look around (some Swiss friends even told me that it was too complicated to look for cyclists and then they gave up - well...) - some will pass around you at 10 cm (that one is especially common here) - some others will "tighten" you against the pavement.. My "favorite" one: in Lausanne, a Mini car car decided to leave the parking spot without looking, and failed to hit me ; then it proceeded to do a U-turn effectively passing close a second time. The lady driving was one the phone.

What's left of all that is that the general mood around bike is "I (cars) don't care about you, and then (bikes) behave like there is no rules". I totally agree that there's a lot to say about cyclists - everybody can take a bike, without any driving rules knowledge or at least the will to abide by. Every other day I'm cycling around I'm overtook at a red traffic light by another bike. I'm especially pissed off by the "security mister", helmet and yellow high-visibility jacket, that decides that with his equipments he doesn't have to care anymore. Well maybe following the rules should be the #1, isn't it?