He's right on #1, #2, #3 (esp. since we now have an IKEA. Bring nothing if you pay yourself), #4.. I dunno.. I don't live with a family, but things are fairly expensive here - it's not clear, whether you mean 120kCHF net or gross. Either way, 120k should get all of you by easily. Especially, if you choose to live in France (prepare for paperwork.... and extra transport/isolation to/from GVA, which is a real issue, you should consider.)

For comparison, I pay 1200EUR (1565CHF) for a 3-room flat with private garden and garage. In France. In GVA, this same flat and size (66 m2) would be located on the third floor and be termed a 5-room* flat (with corresponding price hike). In France, maybe also for GVA?, I also have to pay a 'habituation' tax.. approx 600-1000EUR/year plus TV 130EUR/year.

Shopping: No comments, but the local shopping center's parking lot is 80% Swiss on Saturdays. I don't think the difference is that big, though.

FL

*In GVA, kitchen and bathroom counts as 'rooms'. Perhaps only the kitchen, but you get the idea.

Thanks for your reply.

We can´t live in France, and 120000 is gross (but the employer pays health insurance and a few other things). The point of my acquaintance was that we should buy good, used furniture with the stipend and pocket the rest. Is it worth it? I don´t know.

I think an important factor is who pays for household transport (I presume your employer) and storage (I presume yourself).

I don't know, how long you plan to stay, but I'd consider a clean break (i.e. sell all or most furniture before moving, have nothing or little stored and get something here that is sure to fit the flat and then buy new, if I would return).

I doubt, there will be much left to pocket ;) My allowance was quickly exhausted, even though I brought my household.

Check prices at http://www.ikea.com/ch/fr/store/vernier/, http://www.conforama.ch, http://www.immostreet.com, http://www.autoscout24.ch

Thanks Ferney.

Fortunately, we will not be paying health insurance or IVA, gas is 33% cheaper, there are some other taxes we will be exempt from as well.

In the end, I have budgeted for around $8000 CHF per month. That´s realistic, isn´t it?





 

due to my wife´s job, so that should help some

8000 CHF/mo should be more than enough for a flat, the upkeep of two cars and a family. I would not worry.

Parking fees/fines may set you back a bit, though ;)

On rent depost: my experience is my most owners insist on 3 months. I moved 4 times in GVA, and had to pay 3 months each. 

Rent prices: there's a huge range depending on location, age, etc. I live in a 2 bedroom, and pay just over 2K. 

Re rent prices, most expats are overcharged.   Market rate rent does not exist in Geneva.  You have the right to challenge your rent during the first 30 days of your lease.  Most expats don't know that so we end up overpaying.

I wouldn't count on anyone challenging the rent successfuly in today's market. Its such a seller's market that every apt going for rent has 20-30 people jumping on it. If one person ain't willing to pay the asked price, 20 others will.

Well, there are two other factors to consider when pondering these issues: time and effort.

Furniture

Second-hand stores.  There are some great second-hand furniture places in Geneva.  Lots and lots of it is from Ikea and Conforama.  You generally have to arrange for delivery during  the weekday, sometimes Saturday.  You can save a great deal of money however, you need to have the time to search for things as well as some one at your place to be on hand for delivery.

Buying from other expats.  In addition, there are so many expats moving out of Geneva on a regular basis that you can easily purchase furniture by checking the Glocals and other sites.  

Freebies. You can even get some furniture for free by getting yourself on the freecycle yahoo group list for Geneva as well as checking the Glocals and World Radio Switzerland  classifieds sites.  I got a free wooden Ikea dining table for a friend through freecyle for a friend. Just had to carry it some ten city blocks!

Housing.  The Geneva occupancy rate is less than zero per cent. Geneva is the only canton where the kitchen is counted as a room if you stick a tiny chair/table in it.  Many families are looking for two-and three-bedrooms and that segment of the housing market is extremely tight. 

If you choose to  challenge the rent, it would be better to sign the lease, then join ASLOCA, the local renters' organization.  They will inform you as to whether you can successfully challenge the rent or not.  Again, this takes time and effort.

Good luck!

Actually we succesfully challenged our rent with the help of ASLOCA and had a 20% reduction!  The key is to challenge after you have signed your lease.

We also just go an over 20% rent reduction with asloca and the commission de conciliation. Probably most expats don't even know that they have this right when they arrive and that's also one of the reasons the rents keep going up and up... at every change of tenant they put it up a bit.

Compared to other countries there people rent a lot here (as opposed to buying) and they do have a lot of rights.

As for the deposit, yes they DO ask for 3 monthly salaries, at least if you have an official contract.

Eva, Dantan:

Getting a rent reduction is great! So how does one make it happen, and on what grounds?

I am confused cos I thought the rent market here is non regulated, meaning the owner can charge any price the market is willing to pay. I hope I'm wrong! (-;

Nir

Within the first 30 days of your contract (starting from the day you received your keys, NOT the day you signed the contract...) you can dispute your rent, either:

- because the rent was increased without any reason

- or because you think the rent is too high (because no, the owners can't just do whatever they like!!)

This is done at the Commission de Conciliation en matière de baux et loyers and it's for free. It takes around 3 months to get an audition there. Basically the two parties are supposed to find a compromise. Technically one doesn't need a lawyer to do this, but it's better to have one who knows all the tips and tricks.

You have to submit photos and as much information as possible about the apartment so that the "right" rent can be calculated. Because of this, one has to be careful to note ALL the defaults when doing the "état des lieux".

The easiest way is with ASLOCA, as they have ways to know how much the rent should reasonably be depending on the apartment. In my case, we have a legal insurance who covers all costs but the lawyers there are much less expensive than usually. They will submit the necessary papers and one of their lawyers will be present at the audience for assistance. All communication will pass through them.

If a common agreement is found, the contract will be changed retrospectively from its beginning and the owner has to pay back the corresponding amount of money. Also, the 3 month guarantee will be reduced.

If more people went through this procedure (it's not particularly difficult nor time-consuming) maybe the rents would be lower here...

Thanks Eva.

I'm too late for that by about 2 years, but hope the info will help others.

Do you have any good contacts at ASLOCA? We'd like to see if we can convince them to run a seminar for glocals members on tenant rights.

I don't have specific contacts there. They always seem super busy so I doubt they actually have time to give a seminar like that but you can always try and ask....

I tried them already, and they indeed were so busy that they never considered my plan seriously. So I'm looking for someone who knows someone there...(-;