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Régie - a tale of incompetence and attempted fraud/extortion (with a happy ending)

We left our apartment recently to move to another part of Geneva. For 2 years we had been renting this beautiful apartment. We were sorry to be leaving it, but a change in personal circumstances dictated so.


Our appointment was set for the état des lieux de sortie and we frantically prepared the apartment for this momentous occasion in the life of a locataire genevoise. We had read a lot about these inspections and, as we turned up for the Monday meeting, our feeling was one of apprehension.


As it turned out, the inspection went pretty well. The representative from the régie was cordial and complimented us on the cleanliness and general state of the apartment. Then he got to the stove hood. He opened it up and discovered that we hadn't changed the filter.


Bügger!


Fair enough, it was written that we were responsible for replacing the filter and we hadn't done it. One black mark was noted down onto the sheet and the inspection continued. By the end of the walk-through, "filtergate" was the only crime we could be accused of. The friendly chap informed us that we should find a replacement filter by Friday before he could release our hefty deposit. We signed our état des lieux document and went back to our lives.


Thursday arrived and we hadn't yet found the correct filter for their rather outdated stove ventilation thing. We informed the régie over email that it was unlikely we would hit our deadline. If they could find the correct filter, we would be happy to receive the bill. We included a copy of the état des lieux document as a reminder of our obligations.


The following Monday, a letter dropped into the mailbox at our new residence. Exciting! Everyone loves mail! No. It was from the régie. Now, these letters in French are always littered with niceties, buttering up the reader with "your message received our utmost attention" and a whole paragraph dedicated to their distinguished sentiments, but between the lines the actual message was slightly more sinister.


Firstly they told us that they would sort the filter and will duly send us the bill. Cool. But there was something else. Apparently they had conducted the entrance inspection with the new tenant and had a few more things to add to our naughty list. Hold on? Hadn't we already signed off? Well, apparently not. It turns out we were stupid enough to not notice that the gentleman from the régie hadn't signed the document.


Bügger!


The letter pointed out that the document we possessed was not legally binding as only one party had signed. So he was kind enough to enclose a new copy, with his signature added next to ours, backdated to the date of the exit inspection. The galling part was that this cheeky chappy had added a number of items to the list of felonies we had committed. To a document we had already signed! Now, we are not legal eagles but surely this is somehow fraudulent? Among the items we were charged for was the cleanliness of the apartment. Hold on again? Hadn’t he told us throughout the inspection that the apartment was clean? We were given another deadline of Friday to sort out our mess or be forever condemned to the naughty step.


After spending 24 hours in a state of shock we decided something should be done. A bit of research on glocals and other places led us to the angels at ASLOCA. We gathered our documentation went to their offices during the “sans rendez-vous” hour and waited to be seen. 20 minutes later we were attended to by a pleasantly serious young lady who seemed rather dissatisfied by the actions of the régie. We also appreciated the fact that she politely tried to hide her disappointment that we dimwits could let the régie leave without signing the document.


After reviewing our case she turned to her computer and wrote a beautifully-worded letter about how the régie’s latest message had “received our utmost attention” and “we salute them distinguishably etcetera”. But between the lines it was quite punchy. It referred back to the document we signed originally, contested all the items added illegally and my favourite part was when it brazenly asked: “why would we sign a document that was incomplete?”


We popped that one into the mail and waited for their next move.


Their response was received the following Monday. There was no mention of ASLOCA in the letter we sent, but I’m sure the régie sensed that a stupid foreign-type could never have composed such a note. Their climb-down was spectacular. Obviously they told us that our letter received their “utmost attention” (you betcha!) and they will now retract their claim for all additional items. They will send us the bill for the filter in due course and hope that we receive their distinguished sentiments from the heavens above.


The moral of this tale is that as an expat in Geneva, there are seemingly professional folk out there trying to get one over on you all the time. They will twist, bend and break the rules to their advantage. Do not allow yourselves to be pushed around in this town. If something doesn’t seem right, challenge it. If you’re in the right, you will generally get your way, but unfortunately you sometimes have to fight for it. And if it’s related to tenancy, join ASLOCA. We probably didn’t need them in this case, but they gave us the confidence to challenge this absurd attempt at fraud.


Because of the blatantly illegal move by the régie to amend an already signed document, followed by their swift retraction of the claims, the temptation is there to take this further - I smell blood! But we don’t have the time or wherewithal to get into something like that.


All the best!


R

The text you are quoting:

We left our apartment recently to move to another part of Geneva. For 2 years we had been renting this beautiful apartment. We were sorry to be leaving it, but a change in personal circumstances dictated so.


Our appointment was set for the état des lieux de sortie and we frantically prepared the apartment for this momentous occasion in the life of a locataire genevoise. We had read a lot about these inspections and, as we turned up for the Monday meeting, our feeling was one of apprehension.


As it turned out, the inspection went pretty well. The representative from the régie was cordial and complimented us on the cleanliness and general state of the apartment. Then he got to the stove hood. He opened it up and discovered that we hadn't changed the filter.


Bügger!


Fair enough, it was written that we were responsible for replacing the filter and we hadn't done it. One black mark was noted down onto the sheet and the inspection continued. By the end of the walk-through, "filtergate" was the only crime we could be accused of. The friendly chap informed us that we should find a replacement filter by Friday before he could release our hefty deposit. We signed our état des lieux document and went back to our lives.


Thursday arrived and we hadn't yet found the correct filter for their rather outdated stove ventilation thing. We informed the régie over email that it was unlikely we would hit our deadline. If they could find the correct filter, we would be happy to receive the bill. We included a copy of the état des lieux document as a reminder of our obligations.


The following Monday, a letter dropped into the mailbox at our new residence. Exciting! Everyone loves mail! No. It was from the régie. Now, these letters in French are always littered with niceties, buttering up the reader with "your message received our utmost attention" and a whole paragraph dedicated to their distinguished sentiments, but between the lines the actual message was slightly more sinister.


Firstly they told us that they would sort the filter and will duly send us the bill. Cool. But there was something else. Apparently they had conducted the entrance inspection with the new tenant and had a few more things to add to our naughty list. Hold on? Hadn't we already signed off? Well, apparently not. It turns out we were stupid enough to not notice that the gentleman from the régie hadn't signed the document.


Bügger!


The letter pointed out that the document we possessed was not legally binding as only one party had signed. So he was kind enough to enclose a new copy, with his signature added next to ours, backdated to the date of the exit inspection. The galling part was that this cheeky chappy had added a number of items to the list of felonies we had committed. To a document we had already signed! Now, we are not legal eagles but surely this is somehow fraudulent? Among the items we were charged for was the cleanliness of the apartment. Hold on again? Hadn’t he told us throughout the inspection that the apartment was clean? We were given another deadline of Friday to sort out our mess or be forever condemned to the naughty step.


After spending 24 hours in a state of shock we decided something should be done. A bit of research on glocals and other places led us to the angels at ASLOCA. We gathered our documentation went to their offices during the “sans rendez-vous” hour and waited to be seen. 20 minutes later we were attended to by a pleasantly serious young lady who seemed rather dissatisfied by the actions of the régie. We also appreciated the fact that she politely tried to hide her disappointment that we dimwits could let the régie leave without signing the document.


After reviewing our case she turned to her computer and wrote a beautifully-worded letter about how the régie’s latest message had “received our utmost attention” and “we salute them distinguishably etcetera”. But between the lines it was quite punchy. It referred back to the document we signed originally, contested all the items added illegally and my favourite part was when it brazenly asked: “why would we sign a document that was incomplete?”


We popped that one into the mail and waited for their next move.


Their response was received the following Monday. There was no mention of ASLOCA in the letter we sent, but I’m sure the régie sensed that a stupid foreign-type could never have composed such a note. Their climb-down was spectacular. Obviously they told us that our letter received their “utmost attention” (you betcha!) and they will now retract their claim for all additional items. They will send us the bill for the filter in due course and hope that we receive their distinguished sentiments from the heavens above.


The moral of this tale is that as an expat in Geneva, there are seemingly professional folk out there trying to get one over on you all the time. They will twist, bend and break the rules to their advantage. Do not allow yourselves to be pushed around in this town. If something doesn’t seem right, challenge it. If you’re in the right, you will generally get your way, but unfortunately you sometimes have to fight for it. And if it’s related to tenancy, join ASLOCA. We probably didn’t need them in this case, but they gave us the confidence to challenge this absurd attempt at fraud.


Because of the blatantly illegal move by the régie to amend an already signed document, followed by their swift retraction of the claims, the temptation is there to take this further - I smell blood! But we don’t have the time or wherewithal to get into something like that.


All the best!


R


Robert CJul 30, 2012 @ 22:01
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Re: Régie - a tale of incompetence and attempted fraud/extortion (with a happy ending)
Post 1

Great post Robert - thanks for sharing your experiences with us and congrats on not backing down and standing up for your rights.


Oded

The text you are quoting:

Great post Robert - thanks for sharing your experiences with us and congrats on not backing down and standing up for your rights.


Oded


SiteAdmin Oded, Jul 31, 2012 @ 11:08
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Re: Régie - a tale of incompetence and attempted fraud/extortion (with a happy ending)
Post 2

Yeah!  These organizations - by and large - are terrible.  My last one tried to bill me to remove an 'illegal installation' in the bathroom where the previous tenant hooked up the washing machine to the bathtub faucet.  When I had the first etat des lieux moving into the place, they acted like it was perfectly normal -- even suggested I could hook up a washer there.  Five years later, they acted like it was my fault and wanted me to pay the plumber to remove it because 'it had not been noted on the original etat des lieux'.  Sometimes a letter in writing is intimidating enough to make them back down, but ASLOCA is great.  Highway robbers!

The text you are quoting:

Yeah!  These organizations - by and large - are terrible.  My last one tried to bill me to remove an 'illegal installation' in the bathroom where the previous tenant hooked up the washing machine to the bathtub faucet.  When I had the first etat des lieux moving into the place, they acted like it was perfectly normal -- even suggested I could hook up a washer there.  Five years later, they acted like it was my fault and wanted me to pay the plumber to remove it because 'it had not been noted on the original etat des lieux'.  Sometimes a letter in writing is intimidating enough to make them back down, but ASLOCA is great.  Highway robbers!


WassupSpock, Jul 31, 2012 @ 19:25
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Re: Régie - a tale of incompetence and attempted fraud/extortion (with a happy ending)
Post 3

Thanks for this post. a friend of mine is having a similar problem with her regie. Etat de lieu was a nightmare. They did not think the apartment was clean even though 3 cleaners had spent 5 hours cleaning it. they now want to hire a cleaning company and bill her.

The text you are quoting:

Thanks for this post. a friend of mine is having a similar problem with her regie. Etat de lieu was a nightmare. They did not think the apartment was clean even though 3 cleaners had spent 5 hours cleaning it. they now want to hire a cleaning company and bill her.


delseta9_, Jul 31, 2012 @ 22:08
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Re: Régie - a tale of incompetence and attempted fraud/extortion (with a happy ending)
Post 4

We left our apartment recently to move to another part of Geneva. For 2 years we had been renting this beautiful apartment. We were sorry to be leaving it, but a change in personal circumstances dictated so.

Our appointment was set for the état des lieux de sortie and we frantically prepared the apartment for this momentous occasion in the life of a locataire genevoise. We had read a lot about these inspections and, as we turned up for the Monday meeting, our feeling was one of apprehension.

As it turned out, the inspection went pretty well. The representative from the régie was cordial and complimented us on the cleanliness and general state of the apartment. Then he got to the stove hood. He opened it up and discovered that we hadn't changed the filter.

Bügger!

Fair enough, it was written that we were responsible for replacing the filter and we hadn't done it. One black mark was noted down onto the sheet and the inspection continued. By the end of the walk-through, "filtergate" was the only crime we could be accused of. The friendly chap informed us that we should find a replacement filter by Friday before he could release our hefty deposit. We signed our état des lieux document and went back to our lives.

Thursday arrived and we hadn't yet found the correct filter for their rather outdated stove ventilation thing. We informed the régie over email that it was unlikely we would hit our deadline. If they could find the correct filter, we would be happy to receive the bill. We included a copy of the état des lieux document as a reminder of our obligations.

The following Monday, a letter dropped into the mailbox at our new residence. Exciting! Everyone loves mail! No. It was from the régie. Now, these letters in French are always littered with niceties, buttering up the reader with "your message received our utmost attention" and a whole paragraph dedicated to their distinguished sentiments, but between the lines the actual message was slightly more sinister.

Firstly they told us that they would sort the filter and will duly send us the bill. Cool. But there was something else. Apparently they had conducted the entrance inspection with the new tenant and had a few more things to add to our naughty list. Hold on? Hadn't we already signed off? Well, apparently not. It turns out we were stupid enough to not notice that the gentleman from the régie hadn't signed the document.

Bügger!

The letter pointed out that the document we possessed was not legally binding as only one party had signed. So he was kind enough to enclose a new copy, with his signature added next to ours, backdated to the date of the exit inspection. The galling part was that this cheeky chappy had added a number of items to the list of felonies we had committed. To a document we had already signed! Now, we are not legal eagles but surely this is somehow fraudulent? Among the items we were charged for was the cleanliness of the apartment. Hold on again? Hadn’t he told us throughout the inspection that the apartment was clean? We were given another deadline of Friday to sort out our mess or be forever condemned to the naughty step.

After spending 24 hours in a state of shock we decided something should be done. A bit of research on glocals and other places led us to the angels at ASLOCA. We gathered our documentation went to their offices during the “sans rendez-vous” hour and waited to be seen. 20 minutes later we were attended to by a pleasantly serious young lady who seemed rather dissatisfied by the actions of the régie. We also appreciated the fact that she politely tried to hide her disappointment that we dimwits could let the régie leave without signing the document.

After reviewing our case she turned to her computer and wrote a beautifully-worded letter about how the régie’s latest message had “received our utmost attention” and “we salute them distinguishably etcetera”. But between the lines it was quite punchy. It referred back to the document we signed originally, contested all the items added illegally and my favourite part was when it brazenly asked: “why would we sign a document that was incomplete?”

We popped that one into the mail and waited for their next move.

Their response was received the following Monday. There was no mention of ASLOCA in the letter we sent, but I’m sure the régie sensed that a stupid foreign-type could never have composed such a note. Their climb-down was spectacular. Obviously they told us that our letter received their “utmost attention” (you betcha!) and they will now retract their claim for all additional items. They will send us the bill for the filter in due course and hope that we receive their distinguished sentiments from the heavens above.

The moral of this tale is that as an expat in Geneva, there are seemingly professional folk out there trying to get one over on you all the time. They will twist, bend and break the rules to their advantage. Do not allow yourselves to be pushed around in this town. If something doesn’t seem right, challenge it. If you’re in the right, you will generally get your way, but unfortunately you sometimes have to fight for it. And if it’s related to tenancy, join ASLOCA. We probably didn’t need them in this case, but they gave us the confidence to challenge this absurd attempt at fraud.

Because of the blatantly illegal move by the régie to amend an already signed document, followed by their swift retraction of the claims, the temptation is there to take this further - I smell blood! But we don’t have the time or wherewithal to get into something like that.

All the best!

R


Jul 30, 12 22:01

you can still send this story to Tribune de Geneve ;-) 

The text you are quoting:

you can still send this story to Tribune de Geneve ;-) 


Juli r, Jul 31, 2012 @ 23:21
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Re: Régie - a tale of incompetence and attempted fraud/extortion (with a happy ending)
Post 5

Such a great post, thanks a lot, Robert!

The text you are quoting:

Such a great post, thanks a lot, Robert!


tikati, Aug 1, 2012 @ 07:10
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Re: Régie - a tale of incompetence and attempted fraud/extortion (with a happy ending)
Post 6

Very well done Robert. 


Why don't you tell us what is the name of the régie so we can avoid them.

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Very well done Robert. 


Why don't you tell us what is the name of the régie so we can avoid them.


TheOmegaMan, Aug 1, 2012 @ 11:28
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Re: Régie - a tale of incompetence and attempted fraud/extortion (with a happy ending)
Post 7

I'm quite sure all regies are the same, unfortunately, wether you're the tenant or the owner : A few years ago, I've appointed a regie to rent my flat: not only they "forgot" to send me the contract between the regie and myself but in addition they kept 8% for themselves instead of 3,5 % !

Finally, I had to ask a lawyer to help me: regie refunded me the missing % without any comment and within a few days. I was also able to cancel immediatly the "contract" between regie and myself ... but had to pay 500.- to the lawyer !

The text you are quoting:

I'm quite sure all regies are the same, unfortunately, wether you're the tenant or the owner : A few years ago, I've appointed a regie to rent my flat: not only they "forgot" to send me the contract between the regie and myself but in addition they kept 8% for themselves instead of 3,5 % !

Finally, I had to ask a lawyer to help me: regie refunded me the missing % without any comment and within a few days. I was also able to cancel immediatly the "contract" between regie and myself ... but had to pay 500.- to the lawyer !


missdaisy, Aug 6, 2012 @ 13:30
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Re: Régie - a tale of incompetence and attempted fraud/extortion (with a happy ending)
Post 8

Useful post.  Would have been interesting to know how the regie would have acted if you had written the initial letter before resorting to ASLOCA but it underlines the fact that ASLOCA performs a very useful role and even if you use them to take a regie to court  (which I did) they are cheaper than lawyers.

The text you are quoting:

Useful post.  Would have been interesting to know how the regie would have acted if you had written the initial letter before resorting to ASLOCA but it underlines the fact that ASLOCA performs a very useful role and even if you use them to take a regie to court  (which I did) they are cheaper than lawyers.


Paul E, Aug 6, 2012 @ 14:08
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Re: Régie - a tale of incompetence and attempted fraud/extortion (with a happy ending)
Post 9

I'm really glad you posted this. It makes me feel less alone. Since we moved to this city it feels like I'm constantly battling something and our Regie is an endless source of problems. It's inspiring to hear a happy ending ;)

The text you are quoting:

I'm really glad you posted this. It makes me feel less alone. Since we moved to this city it feels like I'm constantly battling something and our Regie is an endless source of problems. It's inspiring to hear a happy ending ;)


no.38, Aug 6, 2012 @ 20:12
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Re: Régie - a tale of incompetence and attempted fraud/extortion (with a happy ending)
Post 10

Yes, being tenant in Geneva is really hell.


@Missdaisy: in these cases it helps having a juridical private insurance such as the one TCS offers.

The text you are quoting:

Yes, being tenant in Geneva is really hell.


@Missdaisy: in these cases it helps having a juridical private insurance such as the one TCS offers.


TheOmegaMan, Aug 6, 2012 @ 21:20
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Re: Régie - a tale of incompetence and attempted fraud/extortion (with a happy ending)
Post 11

This is wonderfully inspiring! 


I am going through nearly the exact same situation. The regie came and took a look, said there were minor things that needed changing - holes in the walls from hanging photos, a small issue with the stove but nothing else. Overall, he seemed pleased with the condition of the apartment and agreed that issues with the couch were normal ware and tear. It was all very pleasant and wonderful and happy.


He wrote the few changes that needed to be made on the original sheet I signed two years earlier and when I asked what paperwork needed to be done (signitures, etc) he said "Nothing, we are done!" 


Now I have found out that he has concluded I need to pay for fresh paint, a new stove, new couches, a new mattress an electrician.... and now he says the pleather couch, already used by two tenants, should have lasted 50 years.. and that the apartment was left in "such a state" that he has to change almost everything. It seems as though now he is on a delightful shopping spree. 


Is this legal?!?!

The text you are quoting:

This is wonderfully inspiring! 


I am going through nearly the exact same situation. The regie came and took a look, said there were minor things that needed changing - holes in the walls from hanging photos, a small issue with the stove but nothing else. Overall, he seemed pleased with the condition of the apartment and agreed that issues with the couch were normal ware and tear. It was all very pleasant and wonderful and happy.


He wrote the few changes that needed to be made on the original sheet I signed two years earlier and when I asked what paperwork needed to be done (signitures, etc) he said "Nothing, we are done!" 


Now I have found out that he has concluded I need to pay for fresh paint, a new stove, new couches, a new mattress an electrician.... and now he says the pleather couch, already used by two tenants, should have lasted 50 years.. and that the apartment was left in "such a state" that he has to change almost everything. It seems as though now he is on a delightful shopping spree. 


Is this legal?!?!


Liv S, Jul 11, 2013 @ 11:57
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Re: Régie - a tale of incompetence and attempted fraud/extortion (with a happy ending)
Post 12

This is wonderfully inspiring! 

I am going through nearly the exact same situation. The regie came and took a look, said there were minor things that needed changing - holes in the walls from hanging photos, a small issue with the stove but nothing else. Overall, he seemed pleased with the condition of the apartment and agreed that issues with the couch were normal ware and tear. It was all very pleasant and wonderful and happy.

He wrote the few changes that needed to be made on the original sheet I signed two years earlier and when I asked what paperwork needed to be done (signitures, etc) he said "Nothing, we are done!" 

Now I have found out that he has concluded I need to pay for fresh paint, a new stove, new couches, a new mattress an electrician.... and now he says the pleather couch, already used by two tenants, should have lasted 50 years.. and that the apartment was left in "such a state" that he has to change almost everything. It seems as though now he is on a delightful shopping spree. 

Is this legal?!?!


Jul 11, 13 11:57

Check with ASLOCA (the renters' association) but normally, the only thing you need to do is what was marked on the sheet of which I hope you kept a copy.


Best of luck!

The text you are quoting:

Check with ASLOCA (the renters' association) but normally, the only thing you need to do is what was marked on the sheet of which I hope you kept a copy.


Best of luck!


Translator, Jul 11, 2013 @ 12:15
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Re: Régie - a tale of incompetence and attempted fraud/extortion (with a happy ending)
Post 13

Liv. It would help a lot if you named the regie. It is not a state secret.  I am seeing a friend tonight who used to work in a regie and I could at least ask her what her opinion of this regie is.


Also itm would help other readers of this thread if they were prewarned which regie's are best.


Having said that, it is sometimes the case that the regies are being dictated to by the owners


 

The text you are quoting:

Liv. It would help a lot if you named the regie. It is not a state secret.  I am seeing a friend tonight who used to work in a regie and I could at least ask her what her opinion of this regie is.


Also itm would help other readers of this thread if they were prewarned which regie's are best.


Having said that, it is sometimes the case that the regies are being dictated to by the owners


 


Paul E, Jul 11, 2013 @ 12:32
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Re: Régie - a tale of incompetence and attempted fraud/extortion (with a happy ending)
Post 14

Hello,


Do you feel any better if I say that I also had problems with my regie (solved by Asloca) and I AM SWISS ?


Minique

The text you are quoting:

Hello,


Do you feel any better if I say that I also had problems with my regie (solved by Asloca) and I AM SWISS ?


Minique


Minique, Jul 11, 2013 @ 18:20
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Re: Régie - a tale of incompetence and attempted fraud/extortion (with a happy ending)
Post 15

 


Originally, I was an expat who became Swiss on marriage, so I know something about régies’ and owners’ attitudes towards tenants and their personal status.  If the régie or owner wants to be choosy or find fault, any poretext will do -- naionality, professional occupation, skin colour, even religion.


In Zurich I  once obtained a flat even though I was only second in the queue because, as the régie subsequently told me, the owner preferred a Protestant woman to a Jewish man.


R.

The text you are quoting:

 


Originally, I was an expat who became Swiss on marriage, so I know something about régies’ and owners’ attitudes towards tenants and their personal status.  If the régie or owner wants to be choosy or find fault, any poretext will do -- naionality, professional occupation, skin colour, even religion.


In Zurich I  once obtained a flat even though I was only second in the queue because, as the régie subsequently told me, the owner preferred a Protestant woman to a Jewish man.


R.


Ritchie, Jul 12, 2013 @ 09:48
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