......are they back again? Must be election time again.... sigh

Anybody has a photo? I haven't seen them

There's a couple I've seen. One features a white sheep kicking a black sheep back across the Swiss border. They'd be ripped down in the UK. They'd be illegal in the UK !

Well, i don't really get the poster, or what's racist with it. And the domain in the poster seems to be inactive. Don't see what the deal here is.

@Piotr - Really?  Are you joking about not getting it?  I don't think they can get any more clear...  Subtlety is not common Swiss trait...

Having ranted about these posters in previous years, I will let others take up the  cause.... It  just encourages me  to get my Swiss  citizenship so  I can  vote against these kinds of campaigns. 

Perhaps he has not seen the original...

That sheep must have been back right?

Unfortunately - Officially yes - Unofficially no

The UK is not lily white either.

Fascist tendencies are on the rise in Europe - The lessons of the WW2 weren't really ever learned.

Anyone heard of the BNP?

Why is the UN based here?

Is it because it's the country where they have to do the most work?

Those overpayed world saviors wanna feel save too ; )

Keep in mind that the people that set the rules/decide/make the plan are never present on location.

No, i have not. And i am not joking about not getting it.

There's a solid reason (or actually reasons) for why the extreme right movement are becoming more prevalent in europe (and not only in Europe), but either i won't risk of posting it here and beeing misunderstood as one of them. If curious, ask me personally.

Just as nice as the one with the threatening black crows....

Damn right! And perhaps our worst way of not being subtle is our contemptible tendency to generalize...

You're absolutely right in that we have racist c*nts in the UK too - I certainly wasn't claiming the UK is perfect and I don't want to get into any sort of "my country's less racist than yours" argument, which would be pointless.

One of the ways the UK IS better than Switzerland though is that we have laws stopping racist posters being displayed.

I have to say I was very surprised at the posters since the Swiss people I have met seem to be reasonably friendly.

If you don't get it, then you are either very stupid (probably not) or you are being disingeneous.

It is rather ironic that this country boasts about all the great organisations based here, boasts about how diverse and multi cultural it is but deep down it is actually a bit racist. 

My partner has a work colleague that is Swiss born but she has Chinese parents. When she visits the countryside (deeper parts of the country, not close to Geneva) people point at her and stare!! Switzerland is also really white.

There are racists everywhere, all over the planet. The difference though is how governments, the police and the citizens deal with the problem or if they even care. 

The extreme right are nasty, vicious, aggressive and feed on the fears of (mostly) uneducated people. 

In Switzerland there is more percieved freedom of speech...hence mor radical political advertising.

I wont say its right, but it gets the view across of ONE political party, and instally fear in people to vote....

Generalising Switzerland as "racist" for allowing more personal freedom of speech than the UK or US is wrong.... I can see their point for allowing it...but doesnt mean I agree with the politics.

Personally I prefer being in a place where I have the opportunity to say what i want (should I wish to)...within reason, without being branded as something... its far better than being told what to say by the Govt (or only allowed to be middle of the road) in order to pandy to the petty and fragile sensibilities of  the few .

Political correctness has not taken a foothold here yet.  Its not nessessarily a bad thing.

In the reality that poster refers to a common expression: "Black Sheep", meaning a member of a family who misbehaves.

"The black sheep of a family" means usually the relative everybody else is ashamed of.

The problem is that talking about expelling immigrants (who commit crimes), and given who are the people posting it, the racist innuendo is rather blatant, whether originally intended as such or not. 

And they certainly played a lot with the visibility raised by the polemic.

N.B.

For the guy who didn't see the original poster, here it is:

i'll tell you what's in the mind of most Swiss people voting for udc : FEAR.

(since I'm Swiss, I'm being the devils advocate here, that's not my thoughts but here goes) : the Swiss people are scared of what they don't understand. Swiss people from the old generation are purely nostalgic of the good old times, they will never evolve, never open up, never even try to put themsleves in someone elses shoes. So with Europe and it's economic exchanges, the best way for udc to make "points" is to brainwash this old generation - hoping the fear will pass on to the next - into believing that what's coming from the outside is the ennemy, and that the ennemy's ultimate hidden agenda is to deprive the Swiss of security (integrity, wealth, freedom etc.). The thing with the black sheep is not subtle, I agree, and the udc defended themselves pretending the black sheep wasn't referring to black people, but to BAD people....

I personally think this one is far more blatant... but didnt get the same airtime...

What some might call "political correctness" others call civility.  Then again, there is some merit in stating things plainly.

The majority of Swiss are not racist,  in my opinion.  A significant percentage are, however, becoming increasingly comfortable expressing racist -- and facist -- views. 

One problem here, as in many countries where racism and facism are on the rise,  is  that some people don't and won't take these trends seriously.  Some people think these tendencies will simply  fade away if ignored.  Right.

Others might say there are good reasons for the rise of extreme right across Europe.  Yes, there are.

Precarious economic times call  for scapegoats --- or  black sheep.  Because it's impossible to prosecute the former heads of SwissAir,  the Bank Cantonal de Genève, UBS or any other major failed institution in this country or any of the other major economic entities around the world. Billions of francs and dollars lost, millions of jobs lost worldwide.

Whose fault?  Those damn immigrants!

If people started talking seriously about boycotting Swiss tourism and Swiss products, these initiatives would lose a lot of steam...And if these trends continue, move all the international organizations to Scandanavia.

since we're on the subjects of politics.... here is the latest post local election  T shirt from the US....

OMG!! I need that t-shirt/poster....

T.

Save the pic, put it on a usb stick...take it to a tshirt printer in Gva and bingo... I believe there is one in a side street off rue de lausanne opposite the pickwick...

Well, that could  be construed as copyright infrigement and then I'd  be a foreign criminal...

Don't forget that the UN rarely practises what it preaches, working conditions in the UN are going from bad to worse, with people on 2 year contracts being 'encouraged' to leave in order to replace them with cheaper labour. Racism, sexual harassment and mobbing have long been present in the UN organisations.

Did you run into it looking for a fence on your way out from Pickwick matey? ;)

I dont think the Swiss in general are racist. The problem is more political. 

Charlie, what is "within reason" for me might not be "within reason" for you. Who draws the line? I'm not a fan of of the government issuing laws about anything and everything either. I think the best attitude in cases like this one is to ignore it and chanel your energy on positive things, as my tagline says ;) It will die by itself without any help.

Agree... but Scandi has its own issues too. No country is averse to this trend... and in Africa we see equal amounts of racism on the rise..towards non indiginous people. (I know I lived there). Equally so Asia, and in the US it is prevalent too.

Protectionism (whether economic or security or whatever)  does not come without its side effects, and the ones that get the blame are always the newcomers, or non locals. (whether black ,white, yellow or green...)

We just have to learn to deal with this everywhere for the time being. Sadly.

Im personally not so sensitive to external events, and posters proclaiming to damn drunks, or redheads, or celts or idiots, or devlishly handsome guys would get a look from me, but not rile me as it may others.  But then again, I have only been subject to (extreme at times) racism a few times in my life, and even though i remember it as a negative at that time, I took it as a view of a minority and it hasnt shaped my views of the general population of that country or continent. (admittedly if it had been constant and prolonged and been there for generations I may view it differently).

I guess im just happy in my own little world.... I cant change who I am or where i come from, but I can choose whom i interact with, and that makes it easy.

nah... parked near it...

there is hope though, the new generation of Swiss kids is pretty open to new things I believe.

I agree... each to their own, and with their own limits and within its own context... but some things are just not worth the effort to get too upset over.... whilst other things do validate revolutionary tactics.

Politics these days is so dull that I credit the advertising agency with awakening some shock tactics to get people thinking.... I dont believe in the message, but I look at the ad....  and i think... "yes they earned their fee here"....

Perception.... and because we are different it makes life interesting and means we have something to discuss....

Drinking and driving is not a good idea... at least that's what they told me at the police station ;) And don't tell me it was Sunday morning and you were on your way to church either:D

Too open

Yea speaking bout posters, remember last year's pro/against minarets  posters?

Remember how the minarets behind that chick wearing a burka looked like rocket launchers?...

it was early sunday evening...after one pint whilst watching chelsea win...

Charlie is right - but so is Translator.

Let idiots say what they like - IT HELPS TO IDENTIFY THEM

Malcolm X was asked where he preferred to live - The Northern or the Southern states of the USA - his reply was the South as at least the ones there who hated him told him straight to his face, which either gave him the chance to educate and change there minds or avoid them.

Laws do not change peoples mind education does, not just schools but social education, by all of us.

What is scary is that the SVP now have 23% of the vote and are Switzerland's most powerful party. As for most Swiss not supporting these politics and just ignoring this and hoping it goes away, most Germans weren't Nazi's. The Nazi party only had 18.3% of the vote 3 years before they came to power. 9 years later the world burned due to the complacency of the people, those who ignored the problem and thought it would go away.

Yes move the UN - to Spain, better weather, more relaxed and no problem with racism - The Spanish abuse everybody, even their own country men, but they have a healthy way of dealing with it, they argue with them and then have a drink together.

Civility is taught using intelligence - Political correctness is enforced using a stick.

They are targeting handicapped children next... no I am not joking.

Adolf would be so proud...

Anybody who thinks Switzerland is to small to be a problem, remember everybody's favourite guy with one nut came from Austria - a similar sized country to Switzerland.

They are targeting handicapped children next... no I am not joking.

The plan is to teach handicapped children away from the other children - quickly get your children some bleach and blue contact lenses!

Adolf would be so proud...

Anybody who thinks Switzerland is to small to be a problem, remember everybody's favourite guy with one nut came from Austria - a similar sized country to Switzerland.

Regrettably, you may soon be right, seeing as the ACTA-"treaty" wants to try personal copyright infringement under criminal law, rather than civil law.

But I digress. It's off topic.

How do you know it was a chick? ;)

I think, I see some hyperbole here.

Presumably, the idea is to provide tailored classes suitable to each group and not to separate them socially, as such. This concept has been employed in Scandinavia for decades.

Now, whether or not this is a good or bad idea, I'll leave that to teachers to discuss.

> Yea speaking bout posters, remember last year's pro/against minarets posters?

> Yea speaking bout posters, remember last year's pro/against minarets posters?

...oh please.

@Chris Pettipiere Sorry but Switzerland is not a nazi country. Political posters only are political posters. Look at people in the street that is real life. not a political things from political people out of real life (they don't have money problems, easy life, etc,,,)

People in the street in Switzerland are swiss open minded and foreign people that walk together. That always been like that as my country let come many refugee. I don't think that many countries did this as much as Switzerland. Some swiss can be racist and stupid but you can find it in every country. Compared to Russia where one white russian person who took much more sun is controlled very easily by police, and where foreign people encounter easily problems (like administrative  ones) Switzerland is more open-mind. It's not a country where associations are not allowed to live.

The more important is not one political group but people. And swiss people won't turn into nazism, it's not in our nature.

Sorry TSATSA it was not my intention that you should read that comment in that way. I apologise for any offence.

I don't believe that the Swiss are nazi's, it was a very small percentage of Germans who were. The mistake is to think that this will just go away.

The SVP are gaining support (from wikipedia, so it could be wrong)

"The rise of the SVP from being a medium-sized centrist farmers' party to become the strongest party in Switzerland took place during the four federal elections between 1991 and 2007. During this period, the party's "Zürich wing", led by a small group of party leaders of the Zürich cantonal branch, i.e. the circle surrounding Christoph Blocher (including Ueli Maurer,Christoph Mörgeli and others) introduced a new style of campaigning against the party's political opponents, employing previously unused tactics of right-wing populism. There was a move away from the popular base of farmers towards urban conservatives and neoliberals, along with constant attacks on foreign residents and the propaganda of Überfremdung. This drew many protest votes and the party's popular ballot rose from 12% in 1991 to 29% in 2007."

Please don't believe that I was trying to brand Swiss people, but inaction is the same as support in politics.

You are Swiss you can vote and decide the direction of your country.

Unfortunately there is a very small portion of nazi people in EVERY COUNTRY, By the way, nazism acts can be punished by the law. Unfortunatly you cannot erase these kind of persons as NAZI = mad dangerous criminal, etc... And unfortunately criminals exist everywhere !  Perfect world is impossible !

You've gotta be kidding me! The US is more "pro-freedom in speech"??? The US invented political corectness and is only half as open to dicussions compared to most european countries. Whenever I voice my opinions in the US, the most common reply I get is "we would never say (or do) that in the US"! And I am not a radical.

Freedom of speech and tactfulness are very different.  The U.S. you are LEGALLY entitled to say almost anything you want, just certain things are frowned upon.. which is normal anywhere.  You are legally entitled to put up racist, homophobic, anti-government anywhere you want assuming it does not directly provoke or incite violence.  Freedom of speech means defending the right for people to say things you disagree with, just because they have the right to say it.  It's a fundamental American value.  PC has nothing to do with the law, its about general etiquette.

Lexi and Laura are correct.  Freedom of speech is enshrined in the law but this doesn't imply that the US populace is highly tolerant of dissent.

I would argue that they are less tolerant than most Europeans believe and that this intolerance is growing.

.. to the degree of self-censorship in many places.. which is bad for the diversity of the discussion, thus nothing is discussed, no diverse input is solicited, and status qou is maintained. The end result is a homogeneous, fearful, adynamic mental landscape, incapable of handling views different from its own. Quite the opposite of what was intended - or maybe not.

If PC causes people to not speak out for fear of peer pressure, PC is more effective than any law.

Personally, I'm just pro-freedom and pro-education, but not pro-indoctrination (unless it's my own view, that's promoted - goes without saying).

He said it for me. What matters to me is what happens in reality, not what is legally possible. In reality people speak less openly about things than we do in Europe. No offence.

I am kind of curious now. What sort of subjects/discussions do you feel are no go areas in the states but more acceptable in Europe?

The main problem at this moment is that people feel offended to quickly and make someone out for being racist or even use violence. I have a good video about this and add it to this post. Its a Dutch comedian in discussion with 3 girls with a Maroccan background.

In the US:

You can openly take pride in your race only if you are not white.

You can openly take pride in your gender only if you are not male.

Sure. Right.  Let's look at what is happening in France with the removal of the Roma.  That is reality. 

Years ago I worked in the US government during the ex-Yugoslavia crisis. I was astonished that so many of the Europeans I met  did not believe in intervening to help stop "ethnic cleansing."  I was continually told that one should just wait until the crisis "burned itself out." 

While here I've heard Europeans make anti-semetic and anti-Muslim on a regular basis.  And I do protest.  Vociferously. 

Yes, in the US, we absolutely do have more freedom of speech.  What makes you think you can make controversial statements without having to back them up?

Perhaps the majority of Swiss are not racist or facist.  That does not mean that unsubstantiated or twisted ant-foreigner statements should not be challenged.

Reasonable people can disagree. But one doesn't have to be insulting or to incite hatred to disagree.

I really don't want to open Pandora's box. Let's keep it general on an open forum :)

Concerning the black sheep. Did anyone actually check what this political parties intentions are before judging this poster?

Are they against anyone that has a different background or skin color?

Or is it just against those who abuse the system, don't work and wait for you to give them some coins outside the supermarket everyday and are not Swiss?

Ofcourse there are those very leftish people who think that everyone deserves a good life, but you also need a working class that can AND want to support this. Bringing the complete 3rd world here is not the sollution and the Suisse have the right to support and protect their country.

I guess the message is: If you want to work and be part of the society you can stay, if you choose not to work / participate, then you can leave.

I haven't read their programm so might be completely wrong and probably also haven't made any friends on the left side by posting this, but all within the limits of the freedom of speech ; )

Translator,

It's the *nomadic and semistationary camps* (including people), that are being removed, not integrated people in apartments.

Oh, come on, Richard!  Then what the hell is St. Patrick's day? Columbus Day?White Americans can celebrate their ethnicity and national ancestry because they generally know their roots.  The majority of blacks, who were brought as slaves, can only now, through DNA testing, find out the African nation of their ancestors.

With the exception of Martin Luther King Jr. Day and black history month as well as women's history month,  you guys get ten other months of the year!!!

You ever get stopped  for driving while white?  Get paid less because of your gender?

Despite being from the US, are you ignoring hundreds of years of our common history?  Do you even understand where the whole black pride movement came from? Apparently not.

White maleness is reinforced every single day in the United States. Every.  Single. Day.  And the same is true here. 

As Charlie says, the propagandists are earning their money for these posters. Who is out there making posters  about the 2 billion swiss francs lost by the incompetents at the Bank Cantonal de Geneve?  NOBODY!

As a lot of text on a poster wont work, it clearly gives you a few thoughts of what it might impose. Now I think before judging them just by this poster and write a lot of negative posts here, people should go and read their programm.

Do you only buy a car for it's looks or you gonna take a testdrive?

Do you choose you partner only by their looks and be annyoed by their stupidity the rest of you life.

I think not.

People, go read it and come back with some real facts.

Oh.... because they are not "integrated" they are being removed?  Hahahahahahahahaha....

Gee and the French claimed that the Jews were not "integrated" and therefore put them on the trains...

That's quite a leap, you make.

DRINK TIME:::::::

Im out...bye all

Agreed.

Roma camps have been a problem in a lot of countries including my own. Only result was an increase of crime that could be traced back to them.

Comparing it to what happened in the 2nd world war is uncalled for.

I have spoken to UDC officials here in Geneva who tried to explain the black sheep fable to me.  And offered no clear evidence for their argument.

The problem is that over the years --and I have lived in Geneva off and on since 1997 -- the UDC has continually presented this initiative -- something like every two years some version of it.

I have also spoken to members of the Socialist party to ask why they have not more effectively countered these initiatives.  They just kinda mumble...saying that the Swiss -- or at least the Genevois -- won't tolerate discrimination.

The vast majority of foreigners are law-abiding and "integrated."  The other issue is that Swiss do not put Swiss in jail.  According to Swiss politician Carlo Sommaruga, most (white) swiss people get probation and a fine. 

Remember the dominatrix,  Cécile B, who shot the banker Edouard Stern to death? She's getting out soon.  Her lawyer said she intends to focus on her "art."

Trans: St. Patrick's Day and Columbus Day are celebrations of persons and their achievements.  They have nothing to do with race, which never enters the discussion (unless we're talking about the displacement of the New World's indigenous inhabitants -- Off topic).

As for white/male privilege, you are 100% correct on both counts, and no, I don't condone either of them.  But this discussion isn't about white privilege or male privilege.  It's about what kind of speech is socially (un)acceptable in the US.  I stand by my assertion that not everyone in the US can openly take pride in their race and/or their gender.  Think about that last sentence.

Might be uncalled for but a similar statement was made by a European Union official.  As well as many other Europeans...

You might think that it's a leap of fear.  Some of us just don't want "ethnic cleansing" in any shape or form.

Come on!  St. Patrick's day is a celebration of all things Irish throughout the United States.

So, Richard, you expect everthing to be honky-dory after hundreds of years of racism and gender discrimination?  Maybe once all residual elements of these scourges are removed.

Well that doesn't mean we have to share or support their opinion.

I think these people need a serious lesson in history. It's incredible someone dares to get such message across their lips.

This problem is not based on their ethnic background, just there presence and the negative side effects they bring.

Sorry to say that but today, in the 21th century "ethnic cleansing" happen in undevelopped country not in rich and modern Europe countries,,,i don't want to offend but in Africa or in East countries it is very common like war of Rwanda or in Yougoslavie. And i still understand how is it possible to do that, so as the swiss people who do not understand. Please not that we live in a country of difference ; we have to stand each other whereas swiss from Zurich, Lugano, Geneva don't speak the same languages and are different...

@ThomasNL

"This problem is not based on their ethnic background, just there presence and the negative side effects they bring."

Are  you really saying that with a straight face?

Irish is a culture, not a race. 

Yes, that I know...as you will see from my previous post.  And there are lots of black Irish, too.

Yes I am.

Google "Roma and crime" and you get an idea what I'm aiming at.

Of course, it's good to be on one's toes, but this appears to be for economic and crime-prevention reasons, to effectively making it unviable to roam without a job (notwithstanding, I know, that France has laws in place for allowing this under certain conditions).

One can always start a chicken-and-egg discussion regarding means of survival, job prospects, etc. - we can also wait and see it there is any outcome of the proposed lawsuit against France, but tell me whether:

* nomadic children receive the same level of education as stationary children?

* there is more petty crime associated with nomads?

* nomads hold jobs to the same degree as stationaries?

* they have means for self-sustenance available?

* the camps are legal?

* the expelled nomads are French citizens?

If the answer is yes, then please link to the source.

I suppose there  won't be any wholesale removal of bankers any time soon...

But getting  back on topic, the great thing about these posters is that they tend to be noticed by the international press. When that happens, the Swiss business community tends to become alarmed and puts pressure on the UDC to calm down.

I do, also blame the left and progressives.  They are allowing a power vacuum by failing to address some of the actual underlying economic and social problems in this country.   That and they need more effective propagandists.

As an african born and raised in Switzerland (having the tunisian+egyptian citizenship as well as the swiss citizenchip), I feel very concerned by this topic. It is like this poster depicts me as the black sheep and the white sheep, all at the same time.

On the one hand, I feel really disgusted by the obviously racist poster, by the way it wants to associate criminality and color (it is totally unnecessary to try to find explanations about the fact that a "black sheep" doesnt relate to color skin but to the french expression "mouton noir"; an advertise is not about how it "should mean" but about how the one who looks at it perceives it). On the other hand, in an objective way, if we want to live in a democratic country where freedom of speech is guaranted, one has to accept that such different opinions can be expressed, as long as they don't cause directly violence or discrimination.

Actually what really worries me about this is not really the poster, but the fact that we are going to vote in some weeks of time about something I perceive being totally anti-democratic and in contradiction with the swiss constitution, and that us swiss, we lost enough of our civic spirit to even think about it as an acceptable law to apply in a democratic country.If we begin to accept that Justice has not the same issues for swiss and foreigners, whats next?

From the Amnesty International website:

"French officials should be working to fight discrimination, rather than making inflammatory statements that link entire communities to alleged criminality and may lead to even further discrimination against Roma and Travellers," said David Diaz-Jogeix, Deputy Director of Amnesty International's Europe and Central Asia programme.

"Under no circumstances should anyone be returned or expelled simply because they are Roma."

In July, before the evictions started, around 20,000 Roma from Eastern and Central Europe were estimated to be residing in France, many of them in unauthorized camps.

Members of France's Traveller communities, the majority of whom are French citizens, have also been targeted by the announcement to close 300 irregular camps.

Around 400,000 itinerant French Travellers are already subject to discriminatory requirements to report periodically to the police and to be registered with a municipality for three years before acquiring the right to vote.

Under French law, all municipalities with more than 5,000 inhabitants must establish authorized halting sites for Travellers.

In April 2009 only 25 per cent of the municipalities had done so, resulting in an increase in the number of Travellers living in unauthorized halting sites.

"Instead of scapegoating Roma and Travellers, France should focus on fully implementing its own legislation and provide adequate halting sites and protection of the housing rights of all," said David Diaz-Jogeix.

Under international human rights law, the French authorities are obliged to guarantee the rights of all persons, including Roma and Travellers, to adequate housing. They cannot evict anyone from their home, even if it is in an irregular settlement, unless all other alternatives have been exhausted and they have consulted all affected residents.

Evictions can only be carried out when appropriate procedural protections are in place; adequate alternative accommodation provided; and relocated residents offered compensation for all losses.

Amnesty International has urged the French authorities to remove any provisions of French law which are discriminatory against Travellers, such as requiring them to carry travel permits and restricting their voting rights.

The link:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/france-must-end-stigmatization-roma-and-travellers-2010-08-27

huh...where do i hide??????

  off the topic:

find US politics bit more interesting than European 1!

If Obama thinks his ride up 2 now has been a little rough...oh boy wait until...

   "John Boehner (funny name, but nothin funny about his demeanour) comes lookin for obama in january...obama will even feel boehner breathin down his neck when givin a speech...the honeymoon may have just started for president Obama...

now back 2 your white and black sheep topic! quite interesting indeed...

Next to  the meerkats...

At the end of the day this is a power play playing to an unspoken feeling in Switzerland that the country is being over run by "foreigners" to gain votes. The shame is it's working.

The unfortunate truth is that by "foreigner" Europeans often mean non white. My family is extremely mixed. In my household you will find Spanish (all the children except one), Portuguese (the other child, born in Spain) Cabo Verdan (My partner who now holds a Spanish passport after 17 years of living in Spain) and myself English.

The reaction here in Switzerland to each of us is different - My partner will get insulted for her French, however I get congratulated on mine yet I think she speaks the language better. She is Black and African I am white and English.

I will says while this bothers her, she is intelligent enough to put it down to the poor social education, or manners, of those who insult her. and doesn't believe the Swiss are racist or fascist. To me this shows the damage these posters are doing. The truth is they send the message that aggressive racism is acceptable. While I agree most Swiss are intelligent enough to know that it isn't, there are currently 23% who believe it is - hopefully that number will go down at the next election. The only way to make sure it does is for the Swiss to openly discuss it amongst themselves.

Nobody wants to see a rise in crime, nobody wants to protect the criminals, but these posters don't really end up targeting the criminals, they target who is different. The shame is my Saturday morning cartoons lied to me, criminals don't go around the street wearing arrows on jumpsuits. So many Europeans have decided that they can distinguish "criminals" in other ways, i.e. they dress funny, talk with an accent, they are darker, they worship differently.

The truth is while maybe not to the extent that the UDC, SVP or others are aiming for, these laws already existed, OK not the Minaret one..., 700 people are deported each year from Switzerland (according to a Swiss politician recently on WRS) And so these campaigns are just plain and simply advertising.

If you are Swiss and don't like the message that these posters are spreading do something about it, don't wait for it to fizzle out. Politely tell the UDC and if that doesn't work let them know in the way that will really make them take notice - vote for someone else, encourage others to do the same. If their percentage goes down they will take a lot of notice.

If you do however believe that the laws regarding immigrants need to be made a lot tougher, then by all means vote UDC. What we think (us immigrants) is not really important - The foreign members of this forum can choose to leave and take their skills with them if they feel that strongly about it.

If your Swiss this is your country not ours, and your choice of whether you feel shocked enough or embarrassed enough by these images to do something about it.

Translator,

Thanks.  I believe that France and Amnesty somewhat disagree in this case. We will see what the outcome will be. Have a nice weekend.

The Swiss have a history of protesting for things they dislike, it's part of their democratic history and culture!!!

As foreigners WE NEED to adapt to it!!! we're in their country!!!

I lived in the USA and Canada and I know a lot the UK and english speaking societies tend to be very politically correct (hide the bigotry, smile and pretend is not there!!!) which I think it's ok too, a different way to deal with these type of issues I guess.....

However I think it's inappropriate to try to impose the political correctness of english speaking cultures in Switzerland because it doesn't work like that! 

As far as racism, it's everywhere... especially because there will always be people with chip on their shoulders ready to blame their shortcomings on others!!! in Senegal 35% of the population comes from neighboring West African countries and there are cases of extreme racism from politicians and authorities there towards their fellow Africans.... let's not even talk about Asia, Latin America, North America, Middle East etc.

To make racism a european issue it's plain ignorance!

it does associate crime and color together, who remembers the little magazines they sent on the post claiming foreigners were destroying switzerland?.... I read it and they not only blame people of color, they also seem to blame a lot of the "crime and decadence" (don't tihnk there is much of it) of the Swiss society on its ties with europe and being so close to France and the massive numbers of east europeans here etc. etc.

it's plain bigotry, I agree..... but not always based on skin color alone....

Racists are repulsive, I can spot them from miles away, it's like this sixth sense I have, I can just see it on some people's eyes, something they got that hits my nerve.... some posters here strike me as chip on their shoulders bigots holding back from saying something bad so they won't look bad! Hypocrites!!

either way who cares.... life is short and I am gonna enjoy it..... in 50 years most of us will probably be dead and the world will continue with its course with or without these bigots!!! (they'll probably be gone from the planet too anyways!)

life is good and bad, take the good ignore the bad!

cheers

If you think British people simply smile politely and pretend bigotry doesn't exist then you know absolutely nothing about our culture or history whatsoever.

Get your facts right before making incorrect sweeping generalisations!

Wasn't it you that called a certain nation Anal recently? That being the case then perhaps you should look a bit closer to home before preaching to people about adapting!

1. I DID NOT WRITE ANYWHERE THAT BRITISH PEOPLE SMILE AND PRETEND BIGOTRY IS NOT THERE.... show me where I say such thing? (READING COMPREHENSION NEXT TIME PLEASE)... I said POLITICAL CORRECTNESS is what's commonly used in english speaking SOCIETIES, Swiss are a bit more open about expressing their views, they have less fear of being labeled as racist than people in english speaking societies...... political correctness in a way is like smiling and pretending bigotry isn't there, people just hide it, it's all!!!

2. Another point to touch, Society and individual people IS NOT the same thing... my point of view doesn't reflect the point of view of the society that I belong to, many people make a society up and societies tend to act, interact in very unique different ways....

people on the other hand tend to be a world of their own and even though they all form part of a society, they act individually.... understand?

I said English speaking SOCIETIES tend to favor political correctness, and then I gave my PERSONAL DEFINITION OF POLITICAL CORRECTNESS, I didn't say british people smile and pretend bigotry isn't there. 

Maybe I misunderstand geography but from my understanding the Ex-Yugoslavia or the Balkans are located in Europe.

Ethnic cleansing happened in Europe and European empires did it all over the world (European Colonization of Africa, the Americans, Oceania, Asia anyone?) but not only European empires did it... humans worldwide have done it and are still doing it.... 

you can't say ethnic cleansing in the 21st century happens only in the developing world, the 21st century just started 10 years ago!! you never know what the future holds!

I hate that poster. Even if all they meant was "lets get rid of the black sheep", what it really implies is "let's get rid of the black people". And I have a hard time understanding how there's no bigger cry in the local press about it.

Thomas: wow, that comedian held his ground infront of the ladies! I like to think I am all nice and modern. But I got to tell you: if a comedian started cracking hard-core jokes about Jews (and I don't mean the usual light hearted ones), I'd also get upset. I understand the comedian, but also the anger of the ladies.

Andy: I don't think the objective of this post is to "change the Swiss people". It's more to discuss an issue which is close to the hearts of many expats (and which upsets many of us).

Nir

I am surprised that they choiced black sheep to refer BAD people. It doesn't make any sense.

Oh vay oh vay Nir... would be horrible to see you upset, esp in your giant pink panther costume ;-)

We can all try and change it for sure.... but I guarantee that the Gov't will take it to an extreme and impose laws that go beyond the wishes of the many in order to quash the few. Then the extreme goes full circle, and you end up with other types of idiotic speech, and (non) freedoms.

This is what happend with political correctness in the UK, to the extent that local gov't division in London was forced to advertise for a "handicapped black lesbian" to fill a post so that it conformed to the political correct and legally required  % of minorities in its employed groups.$

Some things are worth changing, and some are worth ignoring... the trick is to know which , and how far to push it in order to get the fair equalibrium. (but even then there will be some who are upset).

Winston said... "You can please some of the people all the time, , and all of the people some of the time , but never all the people all the time."

a) Article 8 of the Swiss constitution states that all human beings are equal before the law of the land, and that no individual should be subject to discrimination based upon: 

origin, race, gender, age, language, social status, way of life, religious convictions, personal philosophy or politics, physical or psychological handicap.

Therefore, no one --- whether Swiss or foreign -- is obliged to accept discrimination!  You can swallow it or "adapt" to it, if that is your will.  The Swiss constitution says otherwise.

b) If political correctness and anti-discrimination laws mean someone doesn't dare to call me "the  N-word" to my face, then good.  Keeps more social order and fewer people from being shot and lynched, at least in the US;  they wanna call me that, I say, BRING IT!  We black Americans know how to deal with racists, baby.

c) No one in this forum topic, with the exception of yourself, talked about this as a European-only issue. We were attempting to stick to the topic at hand.  No one said racism and other forms of discrmination don't exist in other nations. So to quote you, "it's simply plain ignorance" not to have understood that we are addressing a specific political poster.

@ Charlie

What I love about your whole "black lesbian" statement is that I have heard for years people going around saying they didn't get a job because the company was forced to hire a one-legged, mixed-race, trans-gender latina.

It never seems to occur to those who didn't get the job that they were not qualified, that the "black lesbian" could have been the most qualified person for the job (shocking, I know).  This is simply pure scapegoating!

I worked in the US  federal government for years and I have dealt with so  many unqualified individuals of the ruling class whose staggering incompetence was tolerated because of which boarding school or university they went to or who their parents were.

You know what "affirmative action" or "positive discrimination" for those people is called?  The old boys network.

So if a single one-legged, mixed-race, trans-gender latina or black lesbian gets a job in one of these places -- thank the lord.  Will at least liven the place up a little bit.

Granted... that they SHOULD get the job if theyre "the best person for the job".... but not to simply tick the quota boxes for local governments annual % check lists.

The old boy network still lives strong (esp in civil service depts, and more so in the US than anywhere else now)... its who you know ... not what you know...always has been and always will be... thats why we all furiously network as we do.

Oh my... is that the time?

Beer o'clock...

Of course -- just as long as there is not the assumption that someone "different" can never be qualified...  Judging merit is a sticky and -- more often than not-- a subjective business...

Meanwhile,....

We should start a drinking game:

for every mention of "black sheep," one drink....

We'll all be drunk pretty sooooooooooon....

Why are you pissed off? do you feel personally targeted? anything to declare? then, why are you more concerned about the sort of criminals than the safety of other citizens?

In Switzerland political parties are allowed to express their views and their opinions loud and clear. UDC just happens to do it in a very catchy way.. 

Now, have a look at crime statistics in Switzerland.. (http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/fr/index/themen/19/04/05.html) They clearly suggest that law violations by foreigners are increasing and represent a higher percentage (despite being from a fraction of the total population) than crimes comitted by swiss nationals. The problem is real, and putting a "racist tag" on those ads, will not fix the statistics.

The message is not racist.. the concept of a black sheep it's a popular image.. and anyways they are not asking to send black people out of the country.. they are defending the idea to expell convicted criminals which is something already in practice in Europe and in most civilized countries around the world.

Maybe "being the black sheep" is not a known expression in all countries. It's a saying which can mean two things:

- Being totally different then the rest.

- The one who is always being blamed.

The expression(and therefor the poster) has nothing to do with skin color and if that is the reason why you feel offended, you're being ignorant.

If  you don't understand the power of symbols and language,  then you may not only  be ignorant but also extremely politically naive.

The language and symbolism is the same in English.  We all know exactly what it means.  It is multi-level political language.  The term "plausible deniability" applies here...

For further explanation and e lucidation, you may wish to read Umberto Eco's essay, "Thirteen Ways of Looking at a Black Shirt"

> - The one who is always being blamed.

That one is a scapegoat, not a black sheep.  Still a caprid, though.  ;)  

correction: 14 ways....notably...

"7. To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country.

This is the origin of nationalism. Besides, the only ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its enemies. Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia. But the plot must also come from the inside: Jews are usually the best target because they have the advantage of being at the same time inside and outside. In the United States, a prominent instance of the plot obsession is to be found in Pat Robertson's The New World Order, but, as we have recently seen, there are many others."

And

"5. Besides, disagreement is a sign of diversity.

Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference. The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition."

P.S.   Notice that the "black sheep" is different from the white ones?

"

Thomas: I think YOU are the one being naive here. Such a poster, where a bunch of pure white sheep kick out the bad black one out their country, surely is meant to make people feel things that are beyond just the face value of "let's get rid of the black sheep". 

Riscal: I myself would support the idea of kicking out dangerous criminals. My issue is not with the idea, but with the way UDC put this idea accross. Showing white sheep kicking out the black ones communicates so much hate and fear, and goes way beyond just "let's get rid of hard criminals".

Nir 

The poster(s) was/were designed to create SHOCK value... thats exactly what it/they did. (in fairness it was advertising brilliance, irrespective of the message)

None of us here agree with the politics behind the poster, thats clear.... so everyone CALM down!!!!!

The fact that Swiss law allows for such posters to be displayed is one topic, that all US foreigners cant change, since we can't vote. We CAN vote economically, in so far as if you feel so uncomfortable here you can leave.

Integration is one way we can change the views of those that can vote, but especially in Geneva we have enough cross border crime that there will always be fear from locals, and with this fear comes a certain level of tollerance of such politics....

So....lets not beat each other up here..... maybe it would be better to find a solution to the problem.

Racism exists here and everywhere.... personally I prefer to see it coming than have it creep up on me. It allows for a chance to redirect it, or proove to the locals who can vote thats its unfounded in the contect of Glocals.

However they will argue that groups such as Glocals are the economic and intellectual benefit to Switzerland, and it is the cross border robbers that they want to dismiss. So we the majority suffer because of the actions of the few. Welcome to real life.

Let's all unite --  as in this classic scence from "Blazing Saddles"

How about this version of the poster I feel this is more politically correct

dammt...Im finished then.... watch the Swiss alcohol related gdp figure drop the day I leave

I must say I didn't read every single post on this thread (especially those that are totally off-topic), but as a Swiss citizen and voter I just want to give my two cents.

A vast majority of my friends are foreign, and something I observe regularly is the lack of understanding of how Swiss politics work (not that I blame anybody for it!). In fact, I do not know of any other country where citizens vote about such diverse topics four times a year. In most countries, decisions are taken by the government and that's it.

The fact that we have this initative-referendum system means that it's expected of Swiss citizens to actually have an opinion about some very diverse and controversial topics. This also means that these topics are discussed a great deal in public, more than in a lot of countries. Take the tobacco ban, for instance: In countries like Italy or France it was just decided. In Switzerland it was a huge debate, because we had to vote about it (in Geneva, even twice!). I agree that sometimes these debates are totally ridiculous, "typically Swiss" (as I would say!), they slow down the political decisions (but hey - that's why Switzerland is so stable).

Of course, the fact that everything gets discussed in public means that very different opinions get expressed - and used by political parties to their advantage. In my opinion this happens in any other democracy - here it's just more visible. Switzerland is not more racist or xenophobic than most other western European countries or the US (have a look at the turn the politics are taking - it's all about isolation, fear of foreigners, fear of muslims, fear of loosing jobs...). It's simply more visible and public here.

Is this necessarily a bad thing? - I'll just leave that question open....

I think one should not judge a country by its border officials - I don't say this to defend Switzerland or anything - but in my experience border officials tend to be on the disagreeable side. Entering the US I was treated like cattle, on the train from Switzerland to Germany the officials checked my boyfriend in a very disagreeable way because he doesn't look 100% German, entering Russia by land I was the only person whose bag was checked because I didn't look like everyone else...

I know there IS xenophobia in Switzerland (but please, don't say "the Swiss are that way" - you're generalising a lot here), but all I'm saying is that I think this is a general tendency in many countries (look at the last Swedish elections, for example), and we should all try to fight it, wherever we live.

I have to agree with Eva.

Sometimes people in immigration can be rather power mad and disagreeable.

One of my first experiences of Swiss people was the department that issues permits. Rude, difficult, power mad.........If I thought Swiss people were like that then I probably would have made a sharp exit!

I think the truth is the Swiss are likeable, open people.

The problem is with the posters and the message that racism is OK. My message to the Swiss on this forum is simple, if you don't like the posters don't vote for the party.

However I have to agree with part of the idea - commit a crime, get thrown out, that's fine, but don't target groups. For example I don't think anyone sees that poster and think's White and from the UK, but trust me after have had a business partner in Spain who also owned a large security company on the Costa Blanca I know for a fact that the UK expats there are equally capable of committing crimes - so are the locals.

Of course I have heard that the UDC take it further such as wanting deportation without trials and if one family member commits a crime to expel the whole family. But having visited the SVP/UDC website I can't confirm that as the information is a bit lacking.

And heres the real danger - what are you voting for? They show you how to vote, but fail to spell out what your voting for...

Yet they have 23% of the vote in Switzerland (not a lot of support in Geneva or the Vaud). Voting is a responsibility and to vote responsibly you need information these posters don't give that information, and nor does their website.

Vote against the SVP and I am sure they will change their methods, and go back to supporting the farmers like they did before.

Of course as Charlie says: in fairness it was advertising brilliance - these posters create massive interest in the party and get people talking about them, fantastic advertising in anyone's book. Just a shame how they do it.

The main concern is how these posters are educating the youth of Switzerland - xenophobia is acceptable.

Trust me that is everywhere - In Torrevieja's townhall at the reception you will meet the nastiest 2 women in the whole of Spain, rude, difficult, power mad.......... But I have to say once you pass them all the other people in the building are wonderful - however it does help if you speak spanish.

Something we all forget, is that it gets really annoying dealing with foreigners who don't speak the language (or in the case of Brits in Spain don't ever intend to learn). I was the exception to the rule, I learnt Spanish and it opened so many doors for me, often with a welcoming smile.

One of the reason the UDC does not have much support in Geneva anymore, it is because there is now the MCG, which is even more right wing than the UDC. They took a lot of votes out of the UDC at the last election 3 years ago..

It is true that the UDC is the first party here in Switzerland, but their force is that they manage to mobilize their troops. Polls have shown than 75% of people sharing UDC ideas go to vote, as less than 20% of the people sharing the Green ideas go to vote. I guess that the other parties have low rate of mobilisation as well. So, if you could find a way to make everyone else vote, I guess the UDC would not be that strong..

Finally, if you are interested in knowing how the UDC manipulates the data and shows the statistics to their benefits, you could have a look at that website :

http://www.cequeludcvouscache.ch/

They went through all the sources mentioned by the UDC on their website this summer to check their veracity and they found out that many times, the information was not complete or even wrong.(I know it is not directly related to the actual posters, but you can assume that they might use the same methods today as well..)

Last comment, you may not like their poster, but you have to admit that the UDC has probably the best communication agency in the political world here in Switzerland. Their posters are very borderline, but at the end of the day, everybody talks about them and this is what they are made for.

...show me a country in the world where "immigration officials" at borders and "civil servants" (who issue permits and passports etc) are friendly?

Civil there doesnt apply to "Civility".....

In all my years of travelling, and visiting over 25 countries, Ive been smiled at maybe half a dozen times... suprisingly mostly on entering the US.

If you really want to experience dour sour faced jobsworths checking your passport... Fly to Moscow.... foreigners and citizens get the same treatment.

Absolutely correct.

For what it's worth - the poster I find offensive because, to me, it is racist; I am also fairly sure that the makers want me to see it just like I see it. What concerns me then is that this is the way a political party chooses to broadcast its message and that this is considered by enough voters to be acceptable. Perhaps it's just a backlash from 'the other side of the political spectrum' to have ignored certain important problems for too long, I don't know. I do hope I won't be seeing too many more of these kinds of 'expressions' in the future.