Get a gun and shoot the traffic manager. Just kidding, but I'm as annoyed or even more then you are. I will try to be constructive in the next posts...

Traffic Rage or Freeway rage works in California.

After a few shootings, people tend to drive more carefully, not change lanes like idiots, drive less on the highways, and often start carrying weapons in there cars.

You can't believe how a few shootings reduce the rudeness, bad driving, and cutting off drivers. No need for tollerance because 'FEAR' works on curbing bad traffic problems, ehehheehehehe

oh, i will be constructive.

Geneva was not a city build too be 'traffic efficient'.

Its an old city and they really hesitate to build more 'convenience' for the sake of efficiency.

And big changes and cost get voted on, and ofter out of the hands of city planners. Cutting traffic could be adverted in the lake side many time with a bridge or tunnels, but the Genevoise continue to refuse in votations.

So dont expect traffic problems to be eliminated anytime soon.

I don't know if the shooting idea is very constructive.. 

But, as much as Geneva is an old town not conceived for lots of traffic, what I was talking about was creating ARTIFICIAL traffic jams- I mean, taking 1.5 hours to go from Jardin Anglais to Pont du Mont Blanc (with no accident or works on the way causing the delai), and then discovering that the the city center is totally EMPTY, can only mean that these jams are deliberate and are not the result of real traffic.
Another proof of it, have you ever noticed how on days where the traffic lights are not working, traffic is much more flowing and quick?

That's what I'm talking about. 

Post your frustration here:

https://www.facebook.com/GeneveCetaitMieuxAvant?ref=stream

In the meantime, take public transport!

Things change only very slowly here!

http://www.freakonomics.com/2008/03/10/what-causes-traffic-jams-you/

http://fireflyeco.com/2011/03/what-causes-traffic-congestion/

I can think of several factors that would contribute to traffic in Geneva.

1. Cars in the middle of intersections when the light turns green. If you are inching along the road or even at a nice clip, you should look ahead at the traffic ahead and see if you'll be able to make it ALL THE WAY through the intersection if it turns red. I wait at the crosswalk until the car in front of me has left enough space for my car. And the far crosswalk doesn't count. Once they advance far enough and the light is still green, I advance. But, almost without fail, I see 3-5 cars follow me as the light turns yellow then red. They end up blocking the cross traffic, stopping on crosswalks, etc.

2. Pedestrians crossing (on crosswalks or not) when their light is red. When it's 12:00am and you can see a mile down the road in each direction and it's clear, yeah, sure, go ahead. But, if it's during the day, you can be sure that there will be traffic. I don't know how many times I've turned the corner along the lake right by Terrasse and Bains de Paquis, only to have to slow down because some people are crossing against the light. Yes, there are also many crosswalks where the pedestrian has priority, but I'm not talking about those.

3. People using a turn lane to "sneak" past others in the "go straight" lane and then cut in at the last minute. The place I see this most often is the route de Ferney going past Intercontinental and heading towards Airport/Ferney/Lausanne and going through a roundabout. After Grand Saconnex and the BP station, there is a two lane road: left lane heads for Ferney/Airport, right lane is a Bus/Taxi lane, but also for people going ON THE HIGHWAY towards Lausanne. At certain times of the day, the left lane is quite backed up, but the left lane is almost always empty. And without fail, car after car after car zoom past in the Bus/Taxi/Highway lane and then left-blink, left-blink, left-blink. "Oops." Bullshit.

I saw another example a few days ago coming back from Nyon during rush hour. I got onto the highway and almost immediately...brake lights. Stop and go for about 500-1000m. Then it moved a bit smoother, average around 60kmh or so, then again brake lights. But, this was as we approached a little rest stop on the side. From off ramp through the length of the rest stop and to the end of the on ramp, it was maybe 500m or so. And I lost track of the cars ("I'm more clever /important/special/immature than you are.") that sped through the rest stop. Blink, blink, blink, roll down the window, "can I get in, please? Thanks." Assholes, the lot of them.

4. People parking in the "bookends" section of parking spaces. In a row of parking spaces, there is almost always a triangular section on each end that is painted with lines (ie., "don't park here") which is used to allow enough space for the cars to wind through. This is usually on residential streets with parking alternating sides or with other "slow-down" measures, but can also be found on the lake roads, etc. People park here which interrupts the intended, natural flow of traffic.

5. The same can be said for people who park IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET in order to drop off the video rentals, library books, or - I saw this once - do their shopping in the local grocer. Park your damn car like the rest of us and WALK to the store.

And on and on and on. But, as the articles above discuss, cases have been found in the wild, where a simple tap of the brakes on a highway can cause a ripple effect felt for miles and miles and miles, the so-called Phantom Traffic phenomenon.

(Nope, I don't think about this much at all.)

There's something you need to understand : They want that people let their car outside Geneva (Genevans and Frontaliers).

They will never do what is needed to do to have an easy circulation, but you still can dream about it....

Now they have the project to turn something like 200 streets in pedestrians street (and then remove the parking place). 

take the bus, the bike, and forget the car.

Go Zonker....I am thinking of having bull bars fitted to my truck in order to collect idiot scooter/motor bike riders who persist in driving on MY side of the road in order to pass a line of traffic.....

I've had my moments of frustration, but I've also lived in Moscow for 5 years, and commuted between Rotterdam and The Hague for 3, so Geneva traffic rarely really bothers me.

Like many cities, Geneva simply can't handle the amount of traffic it gets. Even if we all start behaving better as Zonker suggests, there will be a jam in front of the Mont Blanc bridge (direction Paquis), and it will take 30 minutes to cross the traffic light at the botanic garden (direction centre).

The simple solution is public transportation, which is comfortable and efficient in Switzerland, but frankly I am mainly hoping everyone else will go by train so I can have an emptier road to myself.

Another option is: if you really need to be somewhere on time, leave early. Especially if you need to cross the Mont Blanc bridge (any time) or the road Geneva-Lausanne (in rush hour).

I think the idea of more pedestrian streets, bike lanes, shared Bus/Motorbike lanes is a good policy.

Public transport, bicycling, and scooters are the my best solution for myself :)

Hubert is right that the problem will not change soon if people dont change there car addiction habit, and they must accept that Pedestrians, bicycles, and buses have more rights than a car.

The inner city of Geneva has been jamed by cars for quite some time. The administration reacted, built new tram lines, is building a new rail link (CEVA) and is reducing the traffic which is allowed to enter the city. As a result the traffic jams are now at the city entrance whereas the traffic inside the city is fluid.

This makes the inner city of Geneva a much nicer place to live and stay and encourages car drivers to use public transportation or circumvent the inner city.

Sorry that you had to learn it the hard way. Although there were lots of discussion about the new traffic concept, it was successfull at the polls. And having seen Geneva before the traffic concept was implemented I have to say that quality of life in the city has really benefitted from it.

public transport is unfortunately not an option for everyone, I swapped the car for a scooter and can only say I should have done this years ago. Even though not too enjoyable winter time, always on time

I always find it funny that those people who complain about traffic problems, are the same people adding to the problem. There are traffic jams in every major city of the world. If you want to drive, put up with it. If not, take public transport. 

The solution is NOT to build more freeways, overpasses, tunnels, etc etc (afterall, look what happened to Los Angeles) but to make it more attractive for people to use public transport.

Then again if people want to live in "less expensive" areas with little/no public transport that's another issue altogether.

As someone who came from and lived in a car-obsessed country/city/society, I'm so glad that the public transport here is so good, convenient and although it's a little expensive compared to most other cities, it's reliable and it's still cheaper than having a car and paying for parking, petrol/gas, tolls, and fines (?!) but most of all I feel a lot less stressed as a bus/tram passenger than as a driver! Plus I can use this time to read a book, newspaper, or magazine or listen to my ipod, write/send text messages, etc etc.

Unfortunately I've been late more often than not when taking public transport in Geneva. The trams are very slow and both trams and busses get caught up in the traffic snarl-ups too.

Geneva is designed to be anti-car and every week they introduce new measures to make the life of the car driver more frustrating. For example at Acacias two short cuts at the park and ride have been filled in which forces traffic on a much longer route through several sets of traffic lights. To a certain extent it is counter-logical as it creates more pollution as cars sit at traffic lights but I guess the long term hope is people will give up their cars.

Traffic light phasing is the worst I've seen in a European city. Again I assume the idea is to discourage car drivers.

Then there are the eternal road works all over the place with snails pace construction workers.

The number of huge, swanky cars and SUVs on the road doesn't help. Nor does the generally poor level of driving.

Scooters and motorbikes are quicker as you can overtake long traffic lines but still negotiating all the lights takes time. You also have to be careful when the fog rolls in during the winter and forms black ice on the roads.

I think bicycles are the best way of making shortish trips of 2-4km when it is not too hot, or walkiing, but neither is suitable for the trips the OP made.

David wrote "Traffic light phasing is the worst I've seen in a European city. Again I assume the idea is to discourage car drivers."

This is only partly true. Traffic lights in Geneva are mostly set to decrease the probability of accidents: Every direction and pedestrians have their own green phase. In many cases drivers do not have to watch pedestrians or countertraffic when turning. However this leads to long waiting times.

Although trying to compensate for unsufficient driver training in many parts of the world and virtualy non-existent driving exams, it might not achieve the original aim: Drivers get used to not looking when turning at a green light and will be more likely to produce accidents at those intersections where seperate green phases for everyone were not possible.

In my eyes the solution should rather be to better educate international drivers that pedestrians, cyclists and countertraffic have priority when turning (as well as not jaming an intersection as Zonker mentioned in his post). However considering the rules for international personal in Geneva there is little hope that this can happen.

I hate Geneva traffic, with an unimaginable passion. 

contributing factors as I see it,

1: Traffic lights are a joke, zero system, no integration or method whatsoever. One light close to Cornavin, actual flashes green for 8 seconds, I timed it once, seriously? So every light aorund it is green, but how can you move with this one b*&(&(&&. 

2: Gobshites driving there range Rovers from Balexert to the centre for work, yes public transport is there, and great in city centre, but 'I have a range rover, why should I dilly daly with the peasents?' 

3: Public Transport works to some extent, as long as: 

There are no traffic jams for the tram to get stuck behind, 

its not snowing, 

its not raining, 

its not too hot,

its not Sunday or a holiday.

You don't live as a frontalier, want to pop in for a show in the evening, oh wait no trains back, a night bus that takes triple the time, and overflowing with sweaty teenagers every 3.5 hrs (if your lucky). 

4: Genevan drivers, be it, car, moped, whatever, SUCK! I don;t know what school, or type lessons happens in Switzerland, but my God!! I just came back from China, and Beijing, a city with 5 million cars, and fewer psychos or issues than Geneva. They have no regard for anyone else on the road, or even the slightest comprehension of rules of the road. Zonker nailed it, and i felt myself seething just reading his post. I am 100% with Jeffrey, I have priced the bullbars, and they will come. Unfortunately not yet, as tomororow i am going into GVA for a gig at 6pm, finishing very late, so in theory, to be on time, I should get my sleeping bag and go tonight at 2am!

Rant over.....

As a motorcyclist, I also find this practice shocking and annoying.  In most other countries that I know of, it's considered an endorsable offense to cross a solid centre-line for a very good reason: it's dangerous.

It's annoying for me when I'm riding through a left hand bend, with traffic stopped in the opposite direction, and I'm then suddenly confronted by an idiot scooter rider (some of whom ride motorbikes, but you can see that they are still scooter riders at heart) coming straight at me.  But what's worse is that car and bus drivers routinely swing across solid centre-lines as well.  Riding in the left lane of Route de Lyon can be quite scary.

Incidentally: do you know what happens if you fail your driving test three times here?

They put "GE" on your plates.

I  meant going from Jardin Botanique to the Mont Blanc brigde.. Sorry about the confusion

I haven't read all the posts so forgive me. Geneva's traffic problem stems from the timing of the lights. Every light makes you wait two minutes per light. As a result if you pass ten lights you're spending twenty minutes and so on. It takes longer to get from a village above nyon to the centre of Geneva than from my village to villeneuve. 

That's why the city of Geneva is dead. That's why there is not much night life. That's why on Sundays the city is abandonned. 

Lausanne is a pleasure to drive through. 

Now for the train in to town argument. Reasonable until you see there is no free parking in Nyon, Coppet or other towns along the tracks. As a result you'd pay 30 CHF to park your car in Nyon, another 14chf to 28 CHF for the train in to town... 

There are articles about how the motorway is saturated. There are other articles about how the train lines are not adapted. 

Part of the problem stems from the new agreement where EU traffic can transit through Switzerland. It's great... except that there are two lanes. Vehicles driving at 100 are blocking the right lane. Vehicles at 105 km/h are overtaking slowly. Result: The motorway between Geneva and Nyon is now a provincial road speed wise. 

The road works to add the new fencing are not helping. 

This is why I want people living in the city of Geneva to meet me in Nyon or near the autoroute de Contournement exits. Before you say "but you're just a pessimist" I will point out that I've been driving in and out of Geneva for a decade. My opinion is based on driving into and out of Geneva up to twice a day for the last three years consistently, and quite frequently since 2003. 

You are right of course, and some drivers do misbehave on the road and some of them should definitely rather take public transportation (which by the way is expensive, slow and only works well if you're in the city center), BUT-  some of us, some of the time, do need to take the car, and this is a part of modern life, which the Geneva government will not be able to change.

So if you try to understand the drivers' point of view, stuck helpless instead of getting to work or to other important meetings, after losing hours in jams which are obviously artificial and intentional, seeing all around them minute long red lights, fraction of second long green lights, major traffic axis reduced to 1 lane in order to install huge bus lanes where the bus passes once every 20 minutes, seeing intersections where lights are red (and endlessly red) on all 4 directions, everyone is just stalled, which of course is totally senseless, and perhaps most of all, realizing that someone up there is really taking them for a ride, what else can you expect? Of course they would get angry, frustrated, piste and perhaps desperate, and may do something they would never do under normal circumstances.

So it goes bothways.

I resent the narrative of blaming the drivers all the time. 

If Geneva wants to continue being an international city, and enjoying the juicy taxes, prestige and all the other advantages derived from the presence of international organization and companies, it has the obligation to offer acceptable living conditions to the people who come here- and one of the realities of today's corporate world is mobility, and the fact that time is money. 
This is a fact, and needs to be taken into account. 

Ella:

I hear you. Driving a car into town will likely mean long jams, and even driving on the highway in certain times will mean the same. But I think that's the case in most modern cities. And in reality, it won't change anytime soon in Geneva. As someone said, things change very slowly here. And glocals / Facebook forums won't change that.

I switched to a scooter, and it changed my life for the better, but of course added the safety risk. When I can't take the scooter I take the car, but then try hard not to come anywhere close to rush hour.

I understand public transport can be a solution, but I love the flexibility of having my own transportation, even if it comes at a price.

Nir

On a related point, I have 2 pet peeves about Geneva drivers:

1. They often get into very busy intersections before the car ahead clear the intersection, ending up blocking the entire area when the light turns red.

2. Drivers here seem to be extra annoyed when other try to switch into their lane. I'm sometimes amazed when I want to switch lanes (or fit into the lane after parking) at how many cars on the lane just speed up on purpose to prevent me from passing in. 

Anyone notice the above?

Nir

When I see a bold guy trying to change lanes I have a natural reflex to press on the gas. It rarely happens with pretty girls. Call me sexist.

Hello,

traffic jams in Geneva are indeed artificial - but actually, this is intended!!! in order to make public transport more attractive - at least comparatively, as it's the worst in all major swiss cities and by far.

Check out the official document below for details on where the traffic access control points are in Geneva (that is, where the semaphores are not regulating local traffic but traffic entering the city as a whole - watch out for the ones marked up as taps - "contrôle d'accès"!)

http://etat.geneve.ch/dt/SilverpeasWebFileServer/evolution_des_circulations_a_Geneve_2000-2005.pdf?ComponentId=kmelia752&SourceFile=1266315644701.pdf&MimeType=application/pdf&Directory=Attachment/Images/

I stopped organising via ferrata because I can't stand driving in Geneva anymore. If I could organise the via ferrata and we meet in the countryside I'd start organising them again. I'm not providing a free favour to Geneva people because Geneva's elected officials are making the favour as unpleasant as possible. 

I've been told off by taxi drivers, I've been made to wait half an hour, I've had people send me a text message the next day.... so Geneva, as long as you thing constricting traffic is a good thing I'm staying out... I want to find a non Geneva based dive group so that I no longer have to have anything to do with Geneva anymore. 

Geneva logic doesn't interest me. If you live in Geneva you can rent a car and meet me for activities. I'll meet you elsewhere ;-)

We removed Catalin's last post. I admit I don't really understand Richard A's post either, but as long as it doesn't insult anybody personally, it's cool.

Catalin:

If you discriminate people because they're bald, that males you not a sexist, but a hairist! (-:

Don't worry bro, the day will come when you'll push the gaz, and the big bald guy will get out of the car to spank you in public for it.

I can't wait!

Can i watch?

Maria: there won't be much to watch. It'll just be a bald guy spanking a little guy around for a bit, while the little guy cries "mummy mummy".

And then you wake up from this wet dream ;)

More related to the original post   is the outcome of today's referendum:

http://www.tdg.ch/geneve/actu-genevoise/genevois-refusent-50-rues-pietonnes/story/20930521

In terms of traffic, accepting it would have been yet another disaster...

Sergio: thanks for drawing it back to reality...(-; Did I understand the article correctly: there was a proposal to close 50 more streets in Geneva, and the proposal was rejected. Is that correct?

Correct! Without any realistic compensation in terms of parking space. Or efficient public transport.

Already as it stands right now, driving through Paris(!) is a dream compared to Geneva.

The traffic lights system is certainly organized in a way to make traffic less efficient. It is the worst traffic light system I have witnessed in my entire life and that can only be intentional.

There are several 'constructions' going on even though the only sign for these consructions are blocked roads (and more traffic). I hardly ever see construction happening. Honestly speaking, I believe this is another instrument to discourage people using cars. 

agreed!!

Catalin: I saw your reaction in my e-mails. You are entitled to your thoughts on my opinions. The lack of specificity about which points you find idiotic makes it hard for me to respond in an informed manner. 

Nir: People in Geneva are often looking to do things outside of the city. As a person with access to a car I have spent the last year or two helping with logistics for via ferrata and Diving activities. With VF I actually organised many of the events. With diving I helped with tank fills and the transport of people. 

Driving in to and out of Geneva often adds 30 minutes in the morning, and another 30 minutes in the evening. That's an hour per activity. That's four hours per day where you help Geneva glocals people. That's two hours per week, 52 hours per year. 

With a different traffic system or a meeting point in the canton de Vaud it could take 5 mintues. 

I would like to organise events with people where it's five minutes rather than an hour. I know, my thoughts are unreasonable and stupid ;-). 

keep your views and there will be more "the VF group appears dead"... :-P Show compassion and make favours more convenient and I will revive the VF groups. 

Reka: I have a C permit, and had no idea I could vote on these (or other) Geneva topics! Do you know if eligable voters are supposed to get something via post?

I found Geneva's next challenge. They're going to beat Sao Paolo. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19660765 - where traffic jams are 180kms... Geneva is going to find it hard to beat. I don't think they have that many roads. 

Stop complaining and move to Paris instead, there they have 190km traffic jams, according to www.sytadin.fr

Paris is a major European city with a population of 10 million. Geneva manages similar levels traffic jams with a population of just quarter of million, that's Swiss efficiency for you.

Why move to Paris. Traffic in Lausanne is fluid. I have driven in for the last few days and been pleasantly surprised. You're never stopped more than 40 seconds... or so it seems. 

Lausanne is a pleasure to drive in so far. I've been giving it a try. I wanted to contrast the two. 

Lausanne is a bit like San Francisco with all those hills. They could film a Swiss Bullitt there.

If you ever cross the border avoid Lyon, when I listen to Autoroute FM in the morning there are sometimes 300km of traffic jams surrounding the city. People I know who live there say it is the worst city in France for traffic. They have a good Metro system though.

Let's see if I can find the cast and crew for the Swiss Bullitt.

On a side note London's traffic is terrible, but the public transport infrastructure means that if you don't want to watch television while parking your car at a traffic light you can go underground and watch people read their kindles and listen to their audio devices. It's also fun to find optimal routes from point to point and discover those little secret tricks that only Londoners familiarise themselves with. 

As much as yesterday's end-to-end double rainbow was a beautiful thing to behold, I saw an even more beautiful thing yesterday about an hour or two before.

I was on route de Ferney (UN, Intercontinental, Grand Saconnex) heading towards the roundabout that leads to Ferney/airport (left lane) or Lausanne (right lane), also bus/taxi lane. The one I mentioned earlier has people zooming by only to cut in in the circle, thereby "outwitting" all those suckers who actually abide by the traffic laws and queue up to go to Ferney/airport.

But, what did I see yesterday?! There's a police car up ahead. And two people with neon gillets. And - what? Lo! they are waving to cars trying to cut in and forcing them to go on the highway!!!! AWESOME!!!! At 18:30, I wonder how long it'll take them to recover.....

I applauded the cops as I passed them, they waved in return. I hope they come out every day for a month. and then erect cameras.

Thanks Zonker - a story to gladden ones heart on a dreary Friday !!!

Ouups.. that's not in Paris, but allover France... and on special heavy traffic days of starting or ending vacations...

Actually traffic in Paris is much more flowing than in Geneva, and is optimized without artificial jams! 

Brilliant - far more efficient than a fine

I loved the cut and thrust of London traffic - one of my favourities actually involved a three point turn in Hampstead in order to get round a corner

Back to the original poster - no matter what city you are in, if you have important meetings or even unimportant ones, you do not drive unless you are sure of your route and parking possibilities. That is why taxis are avaialble 

I will join those of you who complain on the artificial problems created by the traffic lights.

We live in Jonction and had a heavy jam of busses and trolleys on the way to their depo. As the are too long they block the other streets and create additional sub-jams. The situation for pedestrians was the same - you had to spend 2 minutes waiting to cross the road.

This was the case until they switched off the traffic light because of some minor road reconstruction in one particular cross. Since that time we've NEVER experienced any traffic jams and the road is almost empty all the time. I will pray for this reconstruction to last as long as possible, because it really helps ALL parties to drive through smoothly.

I hope this topic is going to be addressed sooner or later. Of course, I think promition of public transportation and bicycles is great, but maybe this should be done by positively encouraging people to do so and not by discouraging people using their cars due a traffic light system that does not work well. In the end everybody suffers from traffic jams including people who live in certain streets and don't even have a car. 

I think continuing to call these traffic jams "artificial" and simply tossing aside any blame of drivers is disingenuous.

If *every* single car followed *every* single traffic rule -- 3 seconds distance between cars on highway, obey the speed limit, signal before changing lanes and only when there's enough space, change lines *well* before you need to be in that turn lane, don't "park" in the street with your blinkers on because you'll "just be a second", not blocking intersections when the light turns red, etc. -- if all these rules were followed to the letter, traffic would definitely move much smoother.

But, when *one* single car on the highway taps its brakes and causes a 3-5 mile slowdown, what do you think happens when pretty much everyone thinks they can scoot in between two cars, changes lanes at the last moment.

Yes, the streets/lights of Geneva (and most cities) could be improved. But, the drivers (and i'm no perfect angel myself) must shoulder a huge amount of the blame.

I think that you might presume that people use their cars for 500m which might be wrong. I, for instance, don't have a car but the inefficient traffic light system ennoys me a lot. In fact, it also ennoys me as a pedestrian. 

Of course, having a bike or a scooter would help, but some people (for instance with kids) don't have these alternatives.

In any case, I and many others (certainly also true locals) might find that the traffic system could be improved, starting with the traffic light system.

http://www.ghi.ch/le-journal/la-une/les-automobilistes-petent-les-plombs - just another article speaking about the fantastic traffic situation around Geneva. :-). 

"Closed". "Closed down" is when they close permanently

Do you think someone could make money off of traffic jam tourism? How about selling drinks at traffic lights like you see in other countries. 

Yep, I could do with a couple of beers on the way !!

To bad it is not even funny. Every once in a while I see car drivers sipping a beer on their friday commute home. 

There are these two things that, even after having been here for a while, still strike me as distinctly non-swiss. I was led to believe they were rule obsessed and strived for perfection in engineering. 

One is the bad, bad design and engineering that is especially apparent on intersections. Limited views, awkward placed stoplines, merging and crossing of lanes between cars, trams and bicycles, bike lanes that run against traffic,  you couldn't make the stuff up. And this is not some third-world country, so I always wonder if this is really the best they could come up with. 

And the other one is the complete lack of enforcement. I commute 5000km a year, and I feel I have seen it all. Texting, drinking, driving on any side of the road, driving over the pavement, a red light seems a mere suggestion by your local government, not to mention, cars that are in bad technical shape. No mirrors, no headlights, no brake lights, no plates.  What is up with that? I come from supposedly the most liberal country in the world, the Netherlands, and they ticket harsh and relentlessly. 

> There are these two things that, even after having been here for a while, still strike me as distinctly non-swiss. I was led to believe they were rule obsessed and strived for perfection in engineering.

I think that is more the Swiss Germans though.

The thing that annoys me is the Genevois will start one bit of works, leave it, then start another work somewhere else. They are worse than French builders.

Yes - as my wife and I have often said Switzerland is a land of contradictions !!

I find cycling fascinating in Geneva.

1. Where else can you be cycling along a bus, taxi and cycle lane to find out after an intersection, it has become a bus and taxi only lane and you are forced out into the middle of the road

2. Cycle lanes between parked cars and the pavement - great when the passenger opens the door

3. Cycle lanes that just disappear and the reappear after 50 metres (Bel Air for instance)

4. ever tried following a cycling itinerary?GTried from thje airport to thje centre once and got hopelessly lost somewhere bewteen Palexpo and Grand Saconnex

and so on and so on

I couldn't agree more. But what baffles me,again, is that it is not rocket science. This a dutch intersection design:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlApbxLz6pA

I think selling punching bags would be very profitable... or maybe just going from car to car with a punching bad a offer 2 minutes of punching for 10 frs! :)

Can someone please explain why so many people insist on completely blocking up the intersections when there's a traffic jam, thereby creating more problems for others and themselves?

This morning was a good example, comming from Ferney there was a huge queue going to Gd Saconnex. Most of the people comming from Ferney entered into the intersection, even though it was clear that they would not be able to cross. The result was that nobody could go in any other direction, thereby unnecessarily creating more queues in all directions.

Where does this childish selfishness come from? Do people do this simply because they want others to feel the same pain as them? Or are there any other reasons?

It seems to be a Eurothing. I've seen the same in Munich and it is like that all over France. I'd put it down to poor driver training.

It's not a Euro thing. It happens in other countries too. It's a me-me-me I'm-the-most-important-person/driver-in-the-world thing. Because noone else is in a hurry to get to work.

Ummm, probably because the work is being directed -- by French builders working here in Geneva..

I don't understand why this junction design is not the standard design. It would save the live of a few bicyclists...    (a woman I know was killed by a truck in another town, she would be still alive with such design)

nonono that has nothing to do. Quite funny to read all the opinions but here it is:

The aberrant thruth is that global traffic policy is the monopoly of a state administration: the directorate of traffic (loose translation) that funnily enough can only publish guidelines but not enforce them. Most counties (communes) delegate general traffic administration to them.

BUT!  City of Geneva, being it's traditional arrogant leftwing-tinted dreamer has it's own independent traffic directorate. And of course they make a point of honor in avoiding any coordination with the above State administration. 

Will you believe the global policy underlying the general traffic concept has been copied from a US model of traffic engineering (L.A. mostly), back in the mid-50'ies. Hence the large accesses to the skirts of the City. The management in inner-city traffic concept was kept by the city administration using it's own model and vision. Hence the huge difference in traffic between inner-city and rest of Canton. 

The city vision is to reduce individual traffic as much as possible, regardless of opinions. Most large inner-city employers have been kept away from any participation to such planning. This allowed the apearance of high-density business islands (i.e.UN, Serono, rue du Rhone) disconnected from global accessways. 

So folks you have one solution: quit driving and become a good proletarian: use public transportation, bicycles or go by foot. If you insist on driving, become a gentleman-farmer and remain in your faming commune. Don't ever come to the City. If you need to carry your weekly shoppings, hire your friends & family or donkeys because your local shopping mall has an artificially undersized and overpriced parking lot. 

And next time you vote, think!

You can see here some of the main thoroughfares originally planned in mid-50'ies. You can recognize many you probably use everyday. But the City has simply disregarded this planning. So only the outer-city throughfares have been financed and built by the State. The inner-City remained as it was built originally... for horse-carriages. 

You can see in pict 2 the type of US-style exchange crossings originally proposed. Some have been partially built. others remained on the blue-prints.

There is one excellent feature I would like to bring your attention to. Trains in and out of Geneva now take 12 minutes. This means that for a number of events drivers from the canton de Vaud can meet participants in Nyon and go on to the mountains from there. It should be convenient for the organisers and participants of events. 

I am thinking of via ferrata, climbing, canyonin and hiking. To some lesser degree this would be applicable to skiing and snowboarding. 

My suggestion, in this context, would be to make Nyon, an origin, rather than just a group. 

For Geneva this is perfect, less transit traffic. ;-)

Richard, IMHO Nyon gare is too far from the motorway.  When I go to France for VF and climbing I always pick up people from the GVA airport departures lot.  It's easy on/off for the driver and has good transit connections for the gva resident.  

When going the other direction (into Suisse), I send them to Morges since it's reasonably fast on/off the motorway and still has good connections from Geneva.  Allaman is easy on/off but the passenger is stuck using a regio train that doesn't run very often.

For Lausanne residents, I have them come to Morges if going north or west and Les Croisettes (M2) if we're going east.  Pickups from Lausanne gare suuuuuuck.

I live above Nyon so that is a practical meeting place. For Lausanne I meet them at Lausanne Vennes. With the M2 people can easily get to that station and it doesn't add too much to the total travel time. 

For Geneva I have tried La Praille, Place De Neuve, the train station and one or two other locations. 

If I was to pick up people from Geneva Airport I think it would be from the Migros shop. There are two parkings that are free for one or two hours. That's a new place I could try pick ups from. 

At the moment I'm avoiding the Nyon to Geneva motorway because of road works on 70 percent of the journey. Once those works are finished I'll consider driving back to Geneva on a regular basis. 

I like the airport Migros idea.  In which lot does one park when going to the Migros?

the CFF parking. I usually use the one where I go up the ramp but I think the second one is also good that's just a little further and on the same level as the Migros. 

Thank God that this monstrosity was never finalised!

Imagine having a four-lane highway along the Quai de Mont Blanc! That would really have distroyed the town. It's bad enough as it is now.

Interesting! 
How do you know that (about the model from the 50s)?  

Kind of funny seeing all the suggestions to make the traffic better.  Does anyone really think the Swiss are incapable of fixing the traffic problem?  Of course it could be better, but it's designed to be awful.  Making the traffic this bad is a very effective way to frustrate people into taking alternate transportation, i.e. trains, trams, buses, scooters, walking, netc.  Of course it's draconian, even cruel, but the fact is that people will keep coming to Geneva to live and work in international organizations, or just to give their money to the banks.  There is very little incentive to make the situation any better, particularly for those who don't vote or who are coming from France - i.e. outsiders. 

..it's common knowledge, at least among those involved in local politics

(Reusing this thread instead of respawning a new one; forum is too crowded already)

An interesting information: Geneva municipalities started a survey for anyone interested in transport conditions, with the objective to assist in the creation of a mobility law.  So go ahead and fill in the survey here: http://ge.ch/mobilite/sondage/english