My wife was walking down rue Michel Servet in Champel when she was hailed by a man asking for change for the telephone.  She was a bit suspicious becasue she di not know of any phone box nearby but opened her purse and said she she did not have enough change the man came closer saying 'yes look - there' and was holding a postcard size of cardboard in his had which he placed bewtween the coin part of the purse and the note part.  just before he grabbed the notes she realised what was happeneing and grabbed the card, saved her price and started shouting at him.  he walked off as if nothing had happened. She took the card to the police station because there would be fingerprints on it........ and there the story ends  

needless to say the person was not of Swiss appearance - probably gypsy

My girlfriend almost had her purse pickpocketed (is that a word?) on the bus.  A woman (hate to label her as gypsy, but I'm 90% sure she was) slowly started sliding her hand from behind a big H&M bag into my GF's purse during a bumpy corner.  My GF noticed, stared her down and she bolted out the door.  This all happened just as we were pulling up to the stop, not a coincidence as I'm sure that was the escape plan.

Keep an eye on your bags ladies, especially when it's bumpy and near the stops.

Blimey...

(Yes correct use of the word) Not to make light of your situation and hate to point it out, but a running theme seems to be how bloody awful these jokers are at pickpocketing...

On a more serious note, always good to be vigilant!

Tom, 

Good to see folks from the public helping Fat Cat.

However, I wish we'd see the day where the public would be even more harsh and physically assult these criminals (or at least try to hold them down for the Po-lice) when they're caught red handed!

Easy for me to write this, but on the one occasion I saw a pick-pocket in action all I did was tell the victim about it. I didnt take the time to grab the pick-pocket and try to bring him to swift justice...(-: Just seemed like a hassle, and a real risk of getting in trouble. But still: one can hope...

Nir

I'm surprised to hear this kind of stories since I arrived in Geneva.

What is the Police doing ? 

What are the police doing?  Nada....

I have seen them arresting people of African origin twice around Gare Cornavin and telling by-standers that drug dealers are being arrested.

World Radio Switzerland reported this morning that the Swiss legislature is reviewing initiatives to beef up the federal criminal code.  One of the problems, however, apparently, is that the judges don't apply anywhere near the maximum sentences.  So even for manslaughter, some people don't do very much time.

I have noticed over the years that when a certain area is considered out of control, the police will announce that they are "cracking down" in that neighborhood.  That's supposedly the case with "Operation Figaro" in the Paquis. 

Train stations everywhere are ground zero. 

Trouble is (as is the case in a lot of other countries) the criminals are back on the street in about hour after their arrest.

But there will be a new referendum this fall in Switzerland !

Basically foreign criminals will be deported, family and all. Tolerence is not a word that associates itself with crime, pedophiles, rape, etc.  My only hope is that when a foreign minor gets 3 strikes, his/her custodians (a.k.a. parents) will get the boot as well.  Not that the Swiss are all angels, but statistics do show a rather lop-sided reality.

Have you ever stopped to think about the origins of vigilanties ?  ---> when enough is too much !  Let's hope we don't get to that stage.

Vigilantism (the hard-handed sort) or being armed lends itself to preemptive violence by the people it's supposed to deter. Not very good for general security.

What to do otherwise, maybe the Swiss will come up with some measures.

Again another story about my wife but shows how toher countries react.  she was on a tram in Bulgaria and a gipsy took her purse from her bag. Several passengers saw this and shouted to the driver of the tram who locked the doors of the tram and announced to the passengers that the tram wasa going directly to the police station (which was on the tram line).  When they got there the police arrived and the girl no longer had the purse but the po9lice recognised her accomplice and retrieved the purse intact.  Not a single complaint from the passengers many of whomj were several stops from where they had wanted to get off.  The reason for this story.  If you witness a pickpcketing, It might be worth advising the bus driver and telling him to radio the police and keep the doors locked.   The only problem is that if we adopt the French attitude the criminal will be given Euros 300 and shipped back to E Europe and then will be back with a different passport in a month.   

It is indeed a dillemma. On one hand you want to help, on the other hand you need to protect yourself. From my experience they rarely work alone, and even more rarely will you be aware of all the accomplices. Some of them are more or less harmless but some others will carry knives. I'm not saying they will stab you but a cut on the face is already pretty bad. Even for a tough guy, there isn't much you can do in a crowded place and not knowing who you are up against.

Remember Joe Buck got stabbed in the face but not sure whether is was becasue he was Joe Buck or he was helping someone

this is indeed an interesting thread. however, you should not show your finger only on gipsy looking people as i am sure there are also enough swiss or other cultures doing the same... every country has thieves, criminals, etc... and also, there is always a history behind the behaviour of those people... some have nothing to eat, no education, no country to go to do something, partners beating them (see the report about Hungarian prostitutes in Zurich) for not delivering enough, etc... I am not gipsy and I do not say it is good if they do this, but we should try not to judge too much... Are u guys all perfect?? When was the last time you lied, the last time you betrayed your partner, you longed for somebody else, you stole a pen from your company, etc..... We should try to be more tolerant in a world where there is no more ethics (see banking sector)...

Castellina:

I totally disagree with you. We should not be tolerant of thieves regardless of where they came from or what they went throgh. 

And the fact all of us sometimes lie or dream of doing crazy stuff doesn't mean we should let thrieves be thieves...Wake up to the real world my friend. 

Nir

Hi Castellina

I'm not sure I understand your point.

We should be more tolerant when we see / experience someone trying to steal someone's wallet, because maybe the person doing the stealing has had a hard life?

Thanks

Oded

I agree with a lot you say and it is a vicious circle for gipsies as it it is very difficult for them to escape from the system society has placed them.  unfortunately this is not just a recent phenomenum.  Gipsies have been persona non grata for centuries, not allowed into towns in England in the middle ages.  Now they are classified as Roms which is an awful, degrading word which does not take into account the different types and backgrounds and they all get tarred withthe same brush.   You been in Geneva two years so more or less since the problem started and you maybe do not know the time when they did not exist.  The forum is dealing with pickpocketing, not drug dealers or muggers and this appears to be their speciality (or should I say the speciality of these groups of mainly eastern European gipsies).  The authorities do nothing and continue to let them cross the border.  With Schengen these instances will increase.  Still better not blame the Swiss.  The UK is the same and yet is not in Schengen and is an island with border entry points and we let them in - maybe they are good for the economy???

no, maybe i expressed myself not very clearly.. i didn't say i approve what they're doing, i don't like it either! but, the majority was like yes, all gipsy looking are thieves and beware of them. i know some real gipsy families who have their own businesses (offices with real contracts, etc., forgot the sector) and who are not only successful but also very nice people. it seemed to me that we get into too many prejudices like it's always gipsies who are thieves...

when i first moved to geneva and once took the bus around 7pm after work, there a swiss drunk guy who started to yell at everyone and took out a knife. he awas about to attack the people in the bus. noone had the courage to do anything and the driver ignored the whole situation. i was scared to death.

that is what i wanted to say when i previously wrote that there are people from all categories in all countries and we should not put a whole nation in a pot and generalise. there are also african people stealing or doing other illegal things but also lots of them fully integrated in the country's culture.

Castellina:

So let's summarise it this way: there are thives (and general bad people) from ALL nationalities and races. And we should not tolerate any of em. 

Nir

Maybe my last comment was too weak. I do not condone what gipsies do but the fault is with society which: 1. passively allows them to do it by ignoring the crime (see my first post) ; 2. creates the conditions in which it pays to commit the crime.  Discrimination in the home country which results in menial jobs or no job means that hte prospect of going to France and 'picking a pocket or two' with the only punishment being expulsion plus Euros 300 and 150 per kid for your six kids which are probably not yours when your monthly income might be Euro 100.  The temptation is irresistable.  It is opportunism and nothing to do with a broken background.  But society is more than partly to blame. 

When somebody has their pocket picked (this is the only crime we are talking about) by a non gipsy, please let this forum know.  In my opinion the gangs roaming Geneva have the monopoly here. I say gangs - but they operate in groupdf two or three.  If only Joe Buck would add a comment here.  I am sure he has been harrassed stabbed and goodness knows what by gipsies 

I agree with your statements that we should not tolerate them but I also think we get too deep into the problem. Like Paul said it already, it is a society problem. The politics should be much harder in any country.

I am from Germany and we currently have this problem there too. Two young people attacked a man in his fifties because he wanted to help out a little boy harassed by these two young men (in their twenties). The morale: The man who showed courage and did not want to tolerate their behaviour, died and the guys face some 10 years of prison now. The press also talked a lot about their background why these young men did this and how they were raised. They tried to understand their acting.

I do not tolerate misbehaviour, I hate it when people harm others, but also, i do not like it when one says, this culture is like that, this culture is doing that.

BTW. the two young men were one German, one from Turkey, I think even born in Germany.

I have also been robbed - pickpockets! Long time ago, but I have now learned to be a bit more careful. I count it to life experience.

Montrealer:

What are you talking about?

Tom saw 2 gypsies pickpocketing a guy, so he called what he saw. No one said all gypsies are pickpockets, or that all pickpocketers are gypsies, or that anyone who isnt a gypsie is all good.

This post is not about racism, so let's stop inventing an issue where there isnt one. 

Nir

montrealler

of course somebody politically correct had to get involved.  Please do not try to tell us that the word rom is not abusive.  It is a derogative shortening of probably Romany whichin itself is probably not a correct term but could be acceptable.   I refuse to use the word rom for that reason, for me it is like gippo instead of gypsies.  Gipsies were seen in action and had you bothered to read the initial message the question was quite simple - does anyone have similar stories.  So where is yours please? We have gone through the social reasons and the historical discrimination which is not confined to 1933-1945.  History is a little older than that.   The only person to bring up racism is yourself and surprisingly you have been thanked by two people

sorry if was unclear. i am not trying to attack anybody- i didn't call the original post racist.   in fact, i  just raised the issue and didn't needle any particular comment or user.   why?  i like glocals, and i like the sense of community that it tries to foster, and i am not going to pick out quotes from posts in this thread from particular individuals.  yes, that makes a stronger argument. but it is also rather antagonistic. and frankly, i hoped people would be able to identify what i was talking about themselves.   

if, upon re-reading the thread, nothing jumps out at you, we will probably have to agree to disagree.

but maybe we can agree on the fact that this thread has...covered a broader range of topics then the original anectdote and helfpul warning.  let's not pretend that the whole thread was the original post, or that in raising an issue about some comments in the the thread, i am attacking the original poster.

my experiences? attempted pickpocketing once, and apartment broken into once.  the break-in wasn't solved, and the pickpocketing was done by a person...well, their race isn't important, but if people are curious,  not of the origin identified in these posts.  oh, and an envelope with bills stolen by (i think) a very benign seeming seatmate on an airplane to berlin when i went to the washroom, but that occurred in international airspace, so probably not relevant to this thread. and, ridiculously my own fault for carrying and envelope bills, and leaving my bag when i went to the washroom (hardly a warning needed for the average intelligent glocaler). 

paul- thanks for the explanation about the term rom - while i hope you note i didn't use this term, i think educating people on the origin of the term is thoughtful of you - turns out there is a bit of political correctness in all of us :) 

lastly, maybe my last post wasn't clear or maybe semantics doesn't matter.  but for fun, try to imagine a racial slur you find offensive.  are you doing that? to many people,  gypsy is one of those words. as bad as....well, offensive terms used for people of african origin, jewish people, pakistani etc.   just some food for thought.

Montrealer.  Noted. Only one point these people are a race - some say an aryan race and they have to be called something.  I personally think rom is disgusting and demeaning, maybe gypsy is offensive to sme but it was not used as a slur when I was young.  As stated above the word 'gypo' was used which was meant to be demeaning.  Therefore rightly or wrongly I feel that rom is offensive and thanks to many recent press articles, even if it was not offensive sounding to many people, it certainly is now.  Of course the only people who can really comment are the..... themselves.  if somebody can point me in the direction of an article showing that a certian terminolgy is the correct reference and is accepted by the people of that race as being correct, then I will change my terminology.  Unfortunately if society does not change their position, they will remain outcasts and whatever term is used to describe them will end up being abusive.  I know the majority suffer because of the minority but I also know Romanians in Geneva because they are regarded as being akin to roms becasue iof the similarity of the name.  Roms or Gypsies come mainly from the southern part of communist eastern Europe but of course exist everywhere in Europe       

I meant no offence calling them gypsies, but in the UK I don't think the word has as severe connotations as it does here.

I didn't want this thread to turn into a deep morale debate; rather its purpose was to draw attention to an everyday story and to make other expats more attentive, as opposed to becoming a victim.

I personally don't believe in stereotypes of this manner as every society has its good and bad elements in different shapes and forms.

Why not use the readily identifiable term the, it appears, official organization currently uses and leave discussions of slang and word history to any relevant threads:

"The European Roma Rights Centre (ERRC) is an international public interest law organisation working to combat anti-Romani racism and human rights abuse of Roma through strategic litigation, research and policy development, advocacy and human rights education. [..] The ERRC has consultative status with the Council of Europe, as well as with the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations.", www.errc.org in 'About Us'-section.

Tom I agree with you there is nothing derogatory about gypsies.  Roma I would accept but not the slang term rom. Roma is also unfortunate in that it is the Italian for Rome.  I thought there was a gypsy council in England but anyway ... where are the stories about pickpocketing and how to avoid  

Sorry I hate to be boring but i was right there is a gypsy council so the term Roma or whatever is eurospeak and not English.  This council works to help to integrate gypsies and so the term is not at all derogatory. I think also that the gypsies in England are not necessarily connected to the so-called Roma or at least have not been for centuries. The mai n problem now is that rom or Roma has bgecome a derogatory term i n itself and we will just have to accept that.  

http://www.gypsy-association.co.uk/

... Sorry Paul, not quite pickpockets, but sort of related...as bus experiences.

Since, coming to Geneva 4 years ago, I have experienced the following:-

1. Air-rifle shooting at the bus-stop (bullet holes still in the glass of the bus-stop.. now, widened to a large crack.) Actually missed the heads of 2 girls sitting on the bench, by about 2 inches.

2. 2 attempted bag snatches on the bus - my bag ... luckily, I managed to fight the large man, as he was not expecting me to defend myself. The second time, I saw it happening. Both happened, as the bus was nearing a stop... so the person, could try to run off quickly.

3. Followed home, by a random man, from the bus inside my appartment building door, to my front door.  Luckily, I was able to make a lot of noise and my neighbour was around and came out with a baseball bat, and chased him away.

4. Only this week, I witnessed a man exposing himself, sitting behind 2 girls on the bus. I was on one of the seats facing the other direction -facing the girls and him. Once, seen, I stared at him in the eye, he stopped and moved to the back of the bus. I was so shocked, that I actually did not know what to do.  My french was not good enough to say anything to anyone, or explain to another passenger.  I don't know if anyone else witnessed the incident. The 2 girls got off the bus and did not realise it had happened. He stayed on the bus. I feel pretty bad, that I was not able to react.

All these incidents have happened very close to the new IKEA in town. It is a problem area.  PLEASE  be careful!  Especially Girls!

My 2 recomendations are:-

1. Personal Alarm:This is attached to your handbag or outer clothing.  If you are in an uncomfortable situation, you pull a small chain and throw it in any direction away from yourself.  It omits an extreamely high pitched sound. The police in the UK, say, it gives you an additional time of  3 seconds to RUN, as fast as possible away from the person... if you are being attacked.  It at the very least, draws attention to the loud noise, and hopefully someone would notice or help or the person runs off. I have not seen these in Switzerland, as I bought mine in England.

2. Self Defense Course: Apart from a great way to keep fit, interesting and practical.

3. If out late, try to go home with someone else, who may live in the same area.  If this is not possible, arrange to text a person you have been out with, to let them know you are safely home. 

NB: Arming oneself with a "weapon" is not actually the greatest idea... it often can get used against the person, trying to protect themself :(

With the exception of point 1 -  all of these incidents have happened in the last 6 months.  I now feel quite scared to go home on the bus, late in the evening. However, I refuse to be intimidated by these type of people.  

Just found this podcast about Romas - just to make this discussion both informed and politically correct (usually that is the right wing and anti muslim party that uses that term where used to live) 

http://downloads.economist.feedroom.com/podcast/t_assets/20100910/20100909_roma_4N8Q.mp3?_kip_ipx=1455022214-1284967394&site=economist&cid=8a2059e9ac993b05e749291542c9e65bda3af5bf&sid=e54832eb4323f155ff378d1034d5637314f7efba&pid=5af8f44ced52852f890d97f9c6e75675ea3e8430

Hi there

I have no sympathy for thieves and I know it is politicaly correct not to establish scales in the bad things, but I do a big difference between thieves and rapists. To be a victim of a thieve is always a kind of trauma I guess, and this is so annoying to always grab your bag in the public transports like your life depends on it because of the many stories of pickpockets indeed. Now honnestly a mum who steals meat in the supermarket to feed her kids has nothing in common with the spoiled 16 girl who steals clothes in the shops just for fun.