Yaaaawn!

It would be a real shame if Geneva is left to detriorate ...

Zurich, among other things, is clean and has very high standards when it comes to public places from cleanliness to restaurnt service and more.

So the authorities in Geneva don't have to go far to see an example to aspire to.

This is definitely a wonderful and unique place with its mix of expats and also its natural beauty. It would be wonderful if standards could be maintained.

I`m happy i`m not the only one thinking how geneva degraded since first time i`ve been here, in 2006. Inoperant administration, too lenient. Mendicancy should be fought in stronger ways; now, we have it everywhere, including roms, SDFs or these crazy youngsters lying in every corner of the city. Before i get a stamp of UDC lover, i just think being indulgent in some aspects leads to general degradation. And i AM coming from an already degraded place; just a pity seeing this happening to geneva.

lol

i freely quote: "geneva used to be so clean! Now there are all the gypsies and romanians everywhere!"

that reminds me of something.

sevket, i know what you mean, I completely agree, and i was afraid of giving opinion precisely because of misinterpretation. But take this sentence as not the cause, but just a symptom of something wider. Noone here is a mini-hitler ;)

Wanessa, you think you´re pointing on something wider, which i didnt get? wrong. 

i understood very well what this thread wanted to address. but the worries about genevas "seemingly" decreasing life quality were expressed here in quite an unfortunate way, by pointing on minorieties! 

and in order not to be misinterpreted, obviously another worry of you, you should be very clear in this delicate issue. as you indicated truely yourself already, you are an immigrant yourself too, and it is no reasonable argument at all, by stating, i quote freely again "i am brazilian, but am worried about roms and gypsies in geneva!" 

the next time you want to talk about securing your establishment in geneva, think about that your so called SYMPTONS can fire up easily CAUSES. you as a scientific worker should be familiar with these effects too. 

If you are not too busy with enjoying yourself, with playing tennis and partying, you will have to accept all the unwanted effects of crime, drugs, violence, poverty, which seem to be so inconvenient to the established according to the mood of this thread, in any bigger western european city. 

thats called real life. welcome.

yeah, i know and agree 100% with you. touchy topic, any sentence can be open to 50 interpretations (hey, you know me, i`m the least person to be racist/prejudiced in any way!!! ;).

and unfortunately i`m no sociologist to try to address why even swiss cities can undergo such degradation. my point was: it`s just a pity this is happening, because this is wonderful place to live.

btw, game tmr???? vernets?

Sevket, people are pointing to minorities because it is obvious to anyone not blinded by political correctness that it's certain minorities who are causing a lot problems. Real life cares only about facts.

you like to make it up this easy in your mind, Thomas, but what you call obvious, from another perspective, i call a general prejudice, you like to use.  

so you care about facts?

i wouldnt even disagree if you prove these tendencies statistically, but you will have to accept THE FACT, that those who didn´t do anything wrong dont like to be generalized by easy judgements like here. arent these real life thoughts and feelings? and a matter of fact?

the fine difference is essential and ones attitude proves ones humanity. 

one can point on facts, but still be politically correct.

be lucky not to be born as a gypsi.

Everything you write is correct, Sevket. The thing is that I didn't say (nor do I think!) that *all* Roma are beggars, or any similar general accusation. I was simply pointing out that those groups of people on the streets that are seen as problematic by many do belong to certain minorities.

Now I don't know what practical conclusions to draw from this - maybe none. But it pains me that nowadays you can hardly mention things like this without someone bringing up the Nazis or other atrocities in an instant.

1 FACT is that 100% of beggars are professional beggars. Its a fact, stop caring about these people and wake up to "The REAL world".

2 FACT the police know exactly who they are, where they are and what they do. Theyre powerless, and feel frustrated by it.

3 FACT that the Police are aware that the 200 Robberies on houses committed in VAUD (Nyon area) over the last month were done by Roma camping at Paleo.

4 Fact the police have only 200 officers in the whole of VAUD and are too scared to do anything about.

5 FACT Crime has accellerated in Geneva on a year by year basis, the figures get massaged to reflect otherwise so as not to deter wealthy visitors.

Geneva may well need help, but I do love it here, and I know that FACT it is MUCH safer than many other cities I have lived in or visited.  All we need to do is stop our hearts bleeding for the wrong causes, and concentrate on what is right, just and fair. Political correctness has much to answer for in hiding facts when they shoudl be voiced, if we tell the truth then there is no need to be worried about political correctness, and if the truth hurts someones feelings...then so be it.

Well, this has a name: Godwin's law.

Anyway, i think a big proportion of crimes are being committed by the "white swiss-french-whatever-european-white-male-majority", mainly youngsters bothered/drugged/with-a-deviated-behavior. Point here is "inoperational policies", and not who`s doing what, in my opinion...

What I’m going to say may make me sound like an idealist, and if you know me, you know that is certainly not the case.   But let me bring it home a bit.

It was before the Athens Olympics in 2004, so somewhere in 2003.  I finally decided to do something that I had been thinking about since I arrived in Greece in 2001.  I volunteered to work with the Roma population.

I remember the first time that thought had come into my mind.  I was shopping in a store and a saleswoman was screaming at this tiny dirty child to get out of her shop.  I put everything down, took the little girls’ hand and took her outside.  She, in turn, took me to the rest of the “gang” and I subsequently brought them into a grocery store, babies and all, to buy them food.   At the end of the day, what’s a rotisserie chicken to us?  So these kids became “my kids”, and in a way, they accepted me.  They didn’t ask for money or scrunch of their little faces to beg, they just wanted someone to hold their hands.  Sometimes it’s just so hard to remember that they are, in essence, just kids.

So, in 2003 I decided to really do whatever I thought I could do. I volunteered to help Roma children matriculate into the Greek educational system.  Now my Greek is equivalent to that of a three year old Greek child, so you can imagine the task we had in front of us.  But everything is worth a shot, no?

The thing is what I saw at the Center broke my heart.  Now I’m not a social worker either.  I went to Business school, I’m a lawyer by trade, but the situation there was enough to make the coldest heart melt in an instant.  Child brides giving birth at the age of 13 or less, seventeen year old boys forced into prostitution because it was the only way they could make money.  No running water, no electricity, living in shanties.  I washed them, and their clothes.  They were happy to even get a boiled egg – really, it was a delicacy for them – and even then, they were allowed only a few each.  We studied with them, played with them, and tried to make their life better in any way we could.  Why am I telling you all of this?

I’m telling you this because I’m extremely fortunate to be living in Geneva.   I am extremely fortunate for being born an American citizen, where how hard you work determines where you go in life – not how fortunate your family may be.  The Roma adults were once children - children born into a life that no child should be born into.  Ostracized by communities, completely stateless, no community even within themselves as they are all from different regions, religions, and cultures – the only thing they have in common is their lack of healthcare, education, adequate living conditions and opportunity.

I agree there is cause for grave concern.  There’s lawlessness and abuse within some of the Roma communities, and everything else I mentioned above.  Not just in Geneva, but everywhere.  Crime rates within the city are also on the rise and the safety of the Genevoise population and expat community must be maintained. 

So whether you choose to fight for the human rights of the Roma, or attribute the crime rate to the Roma, perhaps it’s time we all get out there and do something about it? I think that’s the important thing, regardless of whatever your stance on the issue may be.  And maybe, just maybe, we’ll all see the change we want.

Amanda I agree, and your writing certainly touched me.

However, I try not to make a point of attributing a crime to someone who is innocent, and yes, most often children are innocent victims guiled into doing things that shouldnt be done.

Regards the Roma in Paleo, the police caught two of them, they had photographs and maps of the whole area of nyon and prangins, houses with dogs had been maked with a cross, houses already burgled had been marked with a black spot, future targets were marked green.

They broke in, and stole only cash and jewelry (mostly gold) and watches. They managed to enter in through NEW garden/patio/veranda doors, in approx 2 minutes (ie they were well trained). They left watches that wernt valuable, and took those that were, ie they knew their goods too.

The police said they take only this small stuff and leave the huge 3D TVs and other gear since it gets taken across the border that evening, and hence need things that are easily hidden.

The two caught were 16 and 17 year old GIRLS, who were living with a band of approx 40 Roma on Paleo. The police bailed the two girls, because the maps were not enough evidence to hold them at the time (apparently) but delivered them back to the camp where they were greeted by cheers and laughter by the others. The whole group were asked to leave and escorted by the police to the motor route where they set off in search of another base.

the band leader lives in a 4m house in Montreaux, and often you can see the stragglers in caravans at the junction of Villeneuve as you drive back from Valais.

How do I know this? a friend was robbed, and spent 2 hrs discussing this with the police. they were frustrated, cross angry and upset, and the police were helpless.

its a sad state, and I applaud you for your work in trying to make things better, I truely do, but sometimes some people dont want help, theyre just fine as they are doing what they do, and living how they are. The children, unfortunately are victims and will grow to know no better. its easier to rob than to try and change.

Wanessa,

Yes alot of crime is attributed to white Europeans...all over Europe and beyond. no race creed or culture is innocent.

I have lived in 6 European countries... and each has their own issues, in Africa things are done to others that make your blood curdle with no regard for human life, and in LatAm and the US equally so......

Especially to Sevket.... I do not discriminate against anyone. I just dont  have any respect for people who feed on others.  In this case it happened to be gypsies. Since I arrived in Geneva I have been working pretty hard... initially even some odd jobs. Always paying my taxes....so why should I feel bad for people who come here ....do nothing  useful for society... in fact actually the opposite. See the posts below about robberies below- which I also heard about... also another example here- last year (not sure about this one as I try to avoid that place)- in the park in Plainpalais- it was a big hangout of gypsies- basically a nice little park turned into bedroom/toilet for the ''campers''. 

Hey Sevket ...anything to add ? 

@Amanda and others

Maybe we could start a glocals volunteers effort. Take the bull by the horns kind of initiative. I mean, with 30000 members, we should be able to do *SOMETHING* right?

Nir, whaddya think?

We could have glocal volunteer T-shirts or caps, we could be a presence at any number of events, both charity and otherwise (such as races, concerts, etc.) We, the mostly international community, could show Genevans that we're not just here for the prestige, not just here for cushy contracts, but also have a social conscience.

Zonker mate,

Although I think your heart is in the right place Im not entirely sure what you are proposing'?

Pitching up at a Gypsy camp dressed in Glocals tshirts and hats and offering to tidy up their camp site? They'll say "yes, of course go ahead" and then stand by watching and probably piss themselves laughing!

We pay taxes to clean up the streets, so you dont have to. 

Most of these people dont want interfering bleeding hearts involving themselves in what they do.

The  beggars that you see around Geneva are "Organised Crime" , Some opt to be given a disability (ie having their leg broken) or are chosen becasue of a disability because its a better "draw" to those of us who care. the women with kids...dude its a sham... they use the kids to draw money from people BECAUSE the kid is there. i have seen the little tykes using smart bikes to get between pitches, and the same boy i saw last year is here again this year and I have seen him with 3 different women, pretending its his mother each time.

Take a walk around the centre of Geneva during a day and you'll notice how they move, interact, dodge police, act all innocent, hand over cash to guys who drive by in cars over the course of the day to collect the earnings. Its well organised, and its a scam, and they earn a few hundred francs a day each, from begging.

Theyre bussed into Geneva by minivans, or in cars in the morning and taken off at night..

last year a policeman was reprimanded becasue he got so fed up with busting the same beggar every week, he wrote in the passport "arrested for begging" hoping that the border police would deny entry on the next attempt.... the "social conscience" crowd  kicked up a storm and the page was deleted from the passport, policeman got a spank and ... guess what the beggar is doing now... you got it...begging in Geneva and laughing at the cops.

Innocence dies young in that world - as I said, you cant help people who dont want to be helped.

Well, own experience from my home town: kid asking money (what I refuse by all means, ever!), I propose a lunch/any food, he says no, and when i press further, he says he needs bring money to an adult that was hidden somewhere. Shame shame, and this repeated several times. Fortunately several times my food proposals were accepted as well.

And every single time i just had a mix of Amanda`s and Charlie`s feelings. An extreme pity and love for these people, and rage in the same amount. Even more cause I know all charity money never goes to the place "ou il faut", and that all these kids and adults are trapped in an irreversible way in this kind of life.

I do believe in the social "hands-on" work, but not in the clean-hands, where we give money in an indirect way, believing it`ll reach the right place. Call me crazy (i know, this is europe, not brazil), but i really dont think we are helping a lot in this way :S

Thanks Charlie, Wanessa, and Zonkers for your words.

I think we’re at least heading in the right direction with open discourse on the subject.  I’ve heard in passing of a new controversial proposed law to remove Roma children from their ‘families’ if found begging on the street.  I’ve tried to find more information about the proposed legislation but my French is limited, if not non-existent.  Perhaps it could be said that this proposal, combined with the begging ban, shows that someone somewhere is trying to get something done.  Whether we agree with the means, I suppose, remains to be seen.  I sincerely hope that whatever measures are being considered take into consideration the “best interest” of the child, instead of seeking to deter/punish the family.

With regard to us actually doing something on the ground, it has to be done hand-in–hand with the Roma.  Be it through the establishment of an NGO, a Center that provides a food, clothing, and education, or any form of outreach, there has to be some connection with the Roma themselves. Before you build something, you have to make sure they want to come.  That may be a start.  But it would take a lot of time, energy, and commitment, and yes, a lot of compassion.

In light of all of this, the legal system itself must be upheld. Burglary, theft, and any other unlawful act must be tried in accordance with the law and the appropriate sentenced carried out.  So the question would remain, what happens to a child once arrested? Do juvenile detention centers engage in social work and education? Is there any sort of rehabilitation? Will the child be trained in any sort of skills or particular trade while being held?

I do know that for a Roma being rebuked or exiled by the community is the worst punishment imaginable.  For others, as Charlie had said, they have to answer to a band leader.  So the next question would be is there a way to break the cycle?

In the meantime, I must say that Charlie makes an extremely valid point with regard to organized crime, regardless of the origin of the perpetrators.  I have been robbed myself, have bore witness to the theft of friends, and have heard of countless forced entries during my three years here in Geneva.  So, aside from law enforcement, let’s all try to do what we can to keep ourselves and our neighborhoods safe.   The posting of the Modus Operandi of some perpetrators in these discussion boards, Neighborhood Watch, dogs, safety bars on doors, and theft insurance, just to name a few. 

Overall, my comments were just to try and make sure that, through all of this, we all remember the human dimension.  I can imagine that, for some, this way of life is all they know.

I suggest that all those interested/concerned about the subject of the Roma participate in this event tomorrow Thursday at La Barje:

http://www.darksite.ch/ladecadanse/evenement.php?idE=29091&tri_agenda=dateAjout&courant=2010-07-08

It's organized by CODAP: www.codap.org

@ thomas11 - since i grew up in germany and consider myself as german as well, i very well understand the young german generation, that does not want to be identified with historic german crimes, which i think is quite natural. The guilt is definitely not yours. so why should you face that prejudice anymore? but not because you are german, but being a human, one has to have at least a certain conscious of facts, as you liked to point out, and from that point of view i cant imagine the fact, that young germans believe to live a life completely free from historic context, not to be naive.

for my personal heritage, i myself have to explain sometimes my personal political status, regarding turkey, many times while talking about armenian history. and i dont say: it breaks my balls because this subject comes up every time and again and again.  

@charlie thanks for the facts...you seem to have read wrong zonkers comment. zonker proposed to use glocals events and networks, and maybe also collaborating venues, to rise awareness, collect money for charity and maybe establish it among the glocals platform as a constant element, as far as i remember Sindy had similar plans before too, they at least wrote it on there website....

@amanda. thanks and respect to your words and acts.

@shpulka. so you work hard for your life achievements and pay your taxes? good for you. and sorry that i expected a broader awareness of you. but could you propose a way to help maintaining genevas life quality and in the same time help the people, who seem not to want help, but maybe just reacting to the restrictive system with "organized crime" as the only way to survive? if there would be the right preconditions i immagine people wouldnt get criminal at all. and i am not defeding any crime with this argument at all. but isnt it the politics responsibility too to create equal and fair conditions to anyone and provide access to it? ... maybe i am being to idealistic? or too illusionary about swiss governments power or of its will at first point...

@zonker. good proposal. - why not canalize 50% of next big events income into charity? i believe many glocals members would welcome and support it. sindy had it on its website too. 

if anyone feels umconfortable because of my comments, i think we have to deal with that, because we are talking about a very controversial and huge subject, not easy to handle in a forum like this i believe...

...now i am going out into the sun and enjoy myself in wonderful clean geneva! lol

regards

''Les Roms, citoyens européens sans droits?''

Will the discussion also cover the responsibilities of  les Roms ???? ..as the european citizents ?

Plaine de Plainpalais is about the ugliest place in the whole of the canton of Geneva, if not Switzerland. Let them have it. 

Shpulka, I propose you just go to the event tomorrow and participate in the discussion, ask your questions and listen to what those involved with the Roma question have to say, rather than judge without even having been there.

A lot of things have already been said in this thread and I agree that it's an extremely delicate question with a lot of things to consider. Having been involved in a small local project to help Romanian Roma families, I know a little bit about it, also about the difficulties when you're trying to help them. It's not that they won't accept the help, it's just that they seem to have developed a certain way of thinking and of doing things. Whose fault may that be? Iguess society as a whole...

But I don't have the answer at all about how to deal with it, I'm just sure that sticking them all into prison will not solve anything. My personal experience has made me think that education and work opportunities can definitely make a huge change, but from there to the people "camping" at Plainpalais it's still a big step.

I think I'll try to go to La Barje tomorrow and hear what they have to say. Anybody else is curious?

well... not all Plainpalais is like this .... but why let them make it uninhabitable...

correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't "uninhabitable" a teeny tiny exaggeration?

Thanks for invite.... but will skip this one... I have read the recap of the incoming discussion through your link and would gladly participate if both sides were discussed.  But it  seems to me that it is only a one- sided discussion....

Power to you if you think you can help these people in any way... which I doubt they want to be helped in the first place.... why  work hard if stealing and begging is so much easier....

Thanks for invite.... but will skip this one... I have read the recap of the incoming discussion through your link and would gladly participate if both sides were discussed.  But it  seems to me that it is only a one- sided discussion....

Power to you if you think you can help these people in any way... which I doubt they want to be helped in the first place.... why  work hard if stealing and begging is so much easier....

considering that nothing is being done by the authorities... I'am not far off..

geneva is one of the ugliest cities in Switzerland for sure...but they have good jobs...there is always a choice and the very beautyful nature is very near

i hang around the lake up to no good, but I've never picked anyone's pocket......

David... You prove Godwins law exists (its defined on wiki) Im pretty sure no one here is racist, we just dont like being robbed, and yes we are all foreign, but Ive lived here over 10 years, both in Zueri and Geneva, and both cities have their issues.

Back in Ireland we have "travellers" too, maybe you know them better as "pikeys"... some are good honest workers who travel from job to job as the season develops,  and some are just rotten downright thieving rascals.

re your "first came the gypsies and then..." these comments depend on your point of view and background... as an Irishman I could well say " first came the vikings then came the English"... the phrase is almost applicable to any race who has a tarnished history. We arent all in the same bag of bad buggers though when it comes to our social view, and labeling people as racist for pointing out a crime wave that follows a certain band of professional beggars is way off the mark.

Zonker ...LOL ... youre always up to no good... and you dont have to be by the lake for that , or so I hear :-))

if you dont use Glocals for political debate why did you come on here and use the term racists? It kind of inciting a comeback dont you think?

This is a "discussion board", so i guess were discussing, no harm in that.

As to your nationality, my honest apologies for the assumption, slainte.

Story Charlie! 

Im pretty sure no one here is racist, we just dont like being robbed, and yes we are all foreign, but Ive lived here over 10 years, both in Zueri and Geneva, and both cities have their issues.

It's not as simple as bracketing people as those that are racists and those that are not. It's like where does isolated closed-mindedness become racial stereotyping and give way to outright naziism. There is no obvious place to draw the line. Somewhere along the scale the word racist applies and somewhere it doesn't. It's like the whole can't-define-pornography-but-I-know-it-when-I-see-it thing. Using that as my subjective yardstick, and briefly adopting your own style... FACT: there are plenty of racists on Glocals.

You open your first post on this thread with "1 FACT is that 100% of beggars are professional beggars. Its a fact, stop caring about these people and wake up to "The REAL world"." This statement is not even worthy of comment. It's dismissive to humans, overly superior, and wrong all in one go. You proceed to state "FACTS" but they are listed as a set of premises that the forum is supposed to take at face value. I have no idea whether you are capable of backing these up with genuine information, but in general every one of them reads like you have copy-pasted them from the sub-headline of a dreary protective tabloid. You and several other posters on this thread provide isolated anecdotes, but nothing more - anecdotes, contrary to popular belief, do not constitute evidence. The most common assertion seems to be that these people do not want help, are lazy, and not prepared to do anything beyond steal at the 100% level - I'm sorry but this claim is simply beyond ridiculous. 

If I may (and let's face it, I may): the first line in the Wikipedia entry for Bigotry says A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices. 

I'm not saying that anybody falls into any category, but if you enter a discussion with a bulleted list of why a single group of people are bad, and proceed to cherry-pick anecdotes to back up those points, regardless of comments made by anybody else, then a lot of readers will think that you fall into the Wikipedia definition of a bigot. I cannot say more than that, but it is the way you will be interpreted. Sorry. 

" first came the vikings then came the English"... 

Credit where credit's due, dude - that falls into the Wikipedia definition of "Progress".

Hayes

Thanks for your comments, and im sorry if i came across as a bigot, it wasnt my intention.

Most of my anecdotes regards the robberies are facts taken from a good friend who was robbed 2 weeks ago. Aslo the police were helpful in giving an understanding of how inadequate they are in respect to this problem. I was (in most of my posts) piointing my finger to one specific band camped out on the Paleo fields, because I know these statement i wrote  to be true.

Ok I take back the 100% of beggars are pros comment... maybe its 90% in "GENEVA", certainly from my experience and what I see in Geneva. I was not making an assumption that beggars in other countries are pros, which clearly is not the case and would have been wrong of me. although it is a global phenominon and business, and a lucerative one at that.

Im certainly not here to upset anyone or force my views down anyones throat... I clearly have opinons about certain things, opinions they will remain, and I dont expect anyone to agree, and if (as you did) someone points out a erroneous statement or mistakes/misreads a statement or gets realy upset by something I write, then I would be happy to say sorry, on here publicly or face to face.

Im aware that we are a bunch of different nationalities on here and althoug written English is a common denominator, its not the common mothertongue and as such its easy to see where people misread or mistake comments for something that they may or may not be.

Regards the "Progress" comment .. lets not go there, I was referring to the English occupation of Ireland, and really hope you mistook my comment for something else.

Have a good day.

Well, we were burgled and it turned out it was some french guys operating out of Douvaine. So if we're going to go after anyone lets go for the cheese eating surrender monkeys.

Not only that, but I notice there seem to be a lot of them here in GE. Its outrageous, they're stealing jobs from the poor swissies. I think a boycot is in order asap.

We don't need their stinky cheese, expensive wine, stinky men and expensive ladies....

Going to war without the french is a bit like going to war without a banjo, etc etc

I hope I won't be accused of being 'racist' (in my book the ugliest offence after 'Irish' ), but I have to second Charlie on a point: begging is not a need and it is generally organized (not to the advantage of beggars). 

We (luckily) are in a social-democracy, where people can be offered help, food, clothes etc. in case of need.

Giving money to beggars (over all children) means financing the people/organizazions who enslave them to beg and making enslavement profitable.

who said all gypsies are crooks?

"begging is not a need... " ?

this comes only out of the mouth of someone who has never crawled in the mud of crude existency.

if you think the beggers chose to be "professional" beggers because it´s more advantagous that way - sorry but you lack the the imagination that those people who didnt have other possibilities but begging at first place, but "professionalized" and "organized" it after a while, no doubt, in most cases here in a criminal way!

i helped out once at the "feed the needy" event, organized by  robert here on glocals, where they give out free lunch to the homeless. and all the faces i saw there were mostly familiar to me, who are almost part of the geneva landscape during daytime, when you walk around the city with open eyes. people who you usually spot at plain palais or next to the lake, they come and accept, with lots of gratitude, the help they get from the community and the social workers there, and they thank you with all serenity all the time.

the argument, that those people dont want to be helped is not that easy as yes or no - its relatively divers that they are generally open to accept help, but tend to defend themselves very reactionary as soon as they get restricted and dont feel accepted.

thats just my 2 cents here....

Hi folks - this is getting a bit out of hand.

Can we try to maintain a discussion without too many generalizations and without labeling each other as racist, nazzis, or similar?

Discussions are best when things are discussed, not when accusations are thrown in the air.

Thanks

Oded

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

Pastor Martin Niemöller

Repeat 10 times before going to bed tonight.

Sevket,

I didn't mean that begging is not a need in general.

I said that begging is not a need in Geneva, where you have many (including Robert's) initiatives to support the needy.

And I didn't say that beggars chose to do that because it's easy, but I stated clearly that they are generally forced to beg, by criminals that will anyway take their money at the end of the day.

By giving money to beggars you are not feeding the poor fellows, but the criminals who are enslaving them.

Indeed the crime rate went skyrocketing high, since they admitted France into the Schengen zone!

(DISCLAIMER: IT'S A JOKE!)

...and I thought "all Italians" didnt have a sense of humour. Thanks for proving my ill founded bigotted views wrong.  

That's a cheap rhetoric trick.

The issue is a behavioral problem, which stems from a non-productive and non-selfsustainable nomadic lifestyle - the lack of income forcing the nomads to beg (and organized begging is arguably more effective).

How that lifestyle arose is another matter, but it is not relevant to the acute problems we experience. Nor is it prudent to wave the 'we must be politically correct'-card, when there is a need to focus on conscientously solving problems in the city. It is generally known that all cultures have a portion of criminals. Some of these make themselves a lot more visible than others. Again, it is no doubt an unenviable lifestyle, but we should rather fix that, than excuse it. Yes, this homogenizes society, but some behaviours are just not compatible with modern society.

Free and open discussion first - with diverging opinions. Thank you.

:D

what's so great about this place? at least with the trash and the loud people it feels like this city is alive!!!!

it's one of the most depresing places I've been to, sometimes I even feel I'm not in a french speaking place but in a damn little village in the middle of portugal or brazil, i heard that ugly monotonous language everywhere!

Why Roms like you call them especifically?

I was robbed in Geneva and the thief was far from a Romanian, the thief was in fact Brazilian, I have nothing against portuguese speaking people but I was walking down the street with my partner and felt something in my coat, when I looked there was a guy running very fast and I checked and my wallet was missing, I started running after him (I run a lot), I caught him and gave him a slap in the head, he fell on the floor and my wallet flew from his hand.

My partner grabbed my wallet and we held him until someone called the police, guess you can't really generalize huh?

By the way, I found an apartment in a building filled with portuguese and Brazilians every one looks at me odd because I am obviously not portuguese and the neighbors do nothing but play loud music, hammer on the walls, scream to each other in portuguese and I can hear it in my house and so on.

Now I can say this city is going down the drain because they (bra/Por) are ruining it, but I will not say so simply because it would be a generalization.

I know you don't mean to generalize but I leave it like something for everyone to read, I wanted to share my story with you all.....

@andres i think i understand what you're trying to say, but for whatever reason i feel like it's coming off wrong and you'll be taken to task for it. Rather than address each point in your message, let me address just one:

"Now I can say this city is going down the drain because they (br/Por) are ruining it, but I will not say so simply because it would be a generalization."

That's one of the cleverest, sneakiest, deliberate and cowardly ways of actually saying what you believe.

You said what you want to say.

Then you "take it back" while appearing to be "politically correct".

Sorry, mate, but in this case the best option would have been not to say it at all.

FACT! The only experience I have of someone trying to rob me in GE was just after one of the Euro 2008 matches. Some geezer starts walking beside me on Rue de Lyon, chatting and over-gesticulating. We were both pretty drunk, but his method of quite blatantly putting his hand in my pocket still roused my attention. I didn't ask to see his passport but he spoke French with a Swiss accent, so in my experience, 100% of street crime in Geneva is perpetrated by Swiss people. It's the Swiss that ruin it for the rest of us.

The only thing I can see that's really gone down the drain is......

(ready? watch for it... can you see it coming?)

this thread.

FACT!  You made me laugh, even with my stinking hangover!

omg this is getting weird here... first it's the roma, then the french, the swiss, and now the portuguese speaking community with their "ugly" language... (did you know that the portuguese make really good "concierges"? and nice food? and cakes?) :-)

Andres, if international Geneva is too much for you, just go home, wherever you come from. Sorry to say it like that but nobody HAS to stay here. The multiculturalism is a big plus in this city - as an illustration, last night I was sitting at an outdoor bar in a park listening to 80ies rock and next to us a group of muslims were praying. Isn't this beautiful???

Against thieves!

For eigners!

Dear racist and non racist members of glocals,

watch "American history X" with the rock solid Edward Norton.

Speakin of history: do watch this video before goin 2 lake parade...good warm up!

p.s those horrible horrible brazilians with their wonderful sculptured geography! im geting a heart attack...  

Oh, man - not you as well. I don't know if there is a causal relationship or not, but I have noticed that there is a strong correlation between alcohol consumption and hayes-tolerance. 

Would that be a positive or a negative correlation? - and is it dependent on who does the consumption?

In vino veritas = alcohol is an hayes opener...

Quand on est mort, c'est pour longtemps...

All I can say is if you are not happy leave! 

IT'S ACTUALLY CHANGING FOR GOOD!

I lived here from 1984 til 1995 with my parents, at the time my father was an ambassador for our country in the UN and trust me, this place used to be depressing.

Now at least in the summer you can see people, noise, crowds by the lake, before in those days even during the hottest summer days you would barely even see any one even by the lake after 7pm.

Now it's more multicultural and more diverse city, diversity has good and bad.... but if Geneva wants to be an international happening city then it needs to have its bad side!

Now if you want to live in a Disney land type place where there is no trash, no poor people, no noise, and absolutely nothing out of the ordinary happening, then sorry for you because this boring city is increasingly becoming less and less claustrophically swiss!

Wannesa: why are romanians ruining Geneva? you've been here since 2006? that's not enough time to actually be able to tell if this city is changing or not, it's barely 4 years! ask people who've been here 30 years, they'll tell you!

Marina: why do you get your panties in a bunch when they bash brazilians but could care less if they blame romanians or french? isnt that double standards? I thought open minded people would be open minded regardless of nationality..... I dont know who you are but just saying!

Anderes: I don't see the need to call portuguese language ugly..... especially in a thread about Geneva.

To the guy who was robbed by a Brazilian, Somebody took 180 euros from my jacket around Cornavin, the thief was actually SWISS~!~! they caught him.... Geneva born swiss guy with portuguese origin...... so foreigners are not all bad you know?

hahahahahah the best words outta this thread......

who cares about Geneva? in a 100 years this city will still be here and all of us will be dead and forgotten!!!! so why worry with racism and bullcrap of that sort when you have a very very very short life to live?

HELLO EVERYBODY

I saw several people using the word romanians. Well I'm a romanian but there is big difference between romani(gypsies) and romanians. It's true that a part of the gypsies are coming from Romania but they are not romanians. Got it ?

There are more than 12 milions gypsies spread all over the world, In Italy, Hungary, Scandinavic countries and so on. They have their own language, their own history which is easily to find on google, is something interesting so you can read it.

I'm sure that most of you used the word without knowing but make the difference. You can call them Roma, romani, gypsies is up to you but not romanians. I have to enjoy everyday at work jokes about romanians when it's not the case.

What can I say: I share the feeling that things are getting bit out of control..or so it seams. And so far I have read in the nespapers why: not enough Police, not enough guards on the borders - or not enough borders! Welcome to Schengen!

I am as well here since 2006, more than 4 years now, and I'we been staying here for short business trips since 2001. So one can question my feeling for what has changed, but I will share with you my frustration:

I am coming from a country with so mixed population, that some of you have named the fruit salad so. Country which has the biggest Roma settlement in the world. Country where Roma political party exists and have Roma representative in the Parliament...With the most famous Roma singer in the world, with Roma museum, with appreciated Roma culture and music.

And country with lots of Roma people on the trafic lights begging, washing your car, selling you whatever they coud sell. And although is the only obvious business every one of them could do, what is not so obvious is the "boss" behind. Its true, its organized crime most of the time. From what I know and have seen (and I grow up with big Roma family in my street), once they discover place where people are giving, they will stay.

But I guess, in our own way we all came here to get something more...

Its just that when I have agreed to come, there was no trace of any begger or window cleaner on the streets.

Due to the fact that I have spent most of my life looking at the behaviours like this, I could see it coming way before it was in the newspapers.

And there were same links to the dates of Romania, Bulgaria etc joining the Schengen countries, but to my mind its not exclusive.

Roma people are obvious,easy to notice and recognize, thats why everyone talks about them, but they are not the only ones.

Have you noticed recently the group of people "playing" with 3 boxes of matches near Mt.Blanc bridge? This is one of the "organized crime" tricks to take money from inocent people. They are operating in certain way: one is mixing the boxes, two are "playing" with him + one or two girls/woman are involwed and they have two persons standing far from them on the two sides to watch for the Police if comes. Its a show that is being played to attract people to bet with money, pretending they dont know each other. They are not Roma, but again, I could notice them as have seen this in my country.

Why am I writing all this? To say that coming here was a difficult step for me,and many like me who dont want to be taken generaly as bad due to their origin. My coming here was not a present given. I worked hard all my life to be able to raise my daughter in better environment from mine. Thants why I sort my garbage into 7 bags and thats why am not happy to see how Geneva's fathers cant deal with these issues.

Maybe this post is a bit messy, but that how I feel when I read this thread :(

PS. Have you ever watched "Black cat, white cat" movie? Or "Time of the Gypsies"? They are good way to start knowing the Roma people, just as they are!

i didn't read a word past "how my panties behave"....

oh man, you have my sympathies with this one... 

David... some peoples profiles got even deleted from glocals for less important forum posts...

It's seems that this thread suddenly acquired some new potential.

I was expecting Robi to give the thumbs up first! damn it, so much for false expectations ...

Planet is not goin down the drain...some countries are managin well while others need a course in "active fraud management"

We're NOT all equal...some  of us only take 2 secs 2 pick up  women while others take a bit longer...its to do with relativity , manipulation, size of wallet ...other sizes may enter the equation lateron..but boxer size is definetly relevant...color as well...nationality is also quite relevant..u would be so much more popular with a name like CANNAVARO or MANCINI...than a MOHAMMAD or IBRAHIM! just statin facts...again back 2 relativity ....ofcourse where you are geographically helps too!

Fear, prejudice and the stereo can only be eradicated when u take the bull by its horns...there isnt a shortcut im afraid 

last but not least, i finally touched a seals tail and its not that COLD!  

p.s. the above message is not directed at one person.. its general

the whole thread should be deleted, (apart from the panties bit)  too many people are getting upset by misreading comments written in English by non native English speakers.

Example, David R missed his post, and set off on one (rightly) , others have taken me to be a clear cut racist bigot, (wrongly) in any case this thread is going to degenerate into an underwear slinging match, or worse. Either way, I think its over.

My solution to it all... (dare I say it after the weekend I have had) have a "drink" and relax. There are no bad people here, just bad readers and writers  :-))).

@david...its "racial"... point proven

I cant argue with the rest.... since I don't know you

Slainte

It's a pleasure to have gypsy people in my country (Turkiye). Those people are cultural diversity.

long answer filled with nothing but blah blah and more blah blah

The only thing I really like about your post is that hatred is self destructive....... Other than that, good luck to you!

it's good you feel that way, I always encountered that the countries with sizable Roma minorities have very good music, and it's because of the Romas, they are very musical and passionate about it.

this thread's pretty up the drain in my opinion. 

Ok folks.

Thanks for the enlightening posts.

It's been fun, and we got to know some of you better (maybe too well...)

This thread started badly and steadily went downhill so I'm closing it now.  

Yes I know, this is censorship and is completely wrong and un-American, and I'll probably burn in hell for this.

Oded

FACT: everyone is equal..... 

FACT: everyone holds some type of prejudice towards something or some other people, it doesn't mean we're all hicks burning crosses or goose stepping while saying out loud seig heil!

FACT: the world is filled with good and bad, Geneva is not the exception...... while I agree the city has gone down hill a bit especially after Schengen, I disagree in saying that the Romas are to blame.

Back in the early 60's it was the Portuguese, spanish and so....  when I lived here before it was the Serbians and the Brazilians who were to blame if something went wrong, now it's the Romas.... and what is it with blaming the French! back in the day if something in Geneva sucked it was because of the proximity with France and it seems that's still the case......

I mean can something bad come out of Switzerland? or is it only the foreigners or neighboring France to blame if something goes wrong here?