It boils down to; ....."Yer, it's all wogs south of Dover, innit? And wots this urop place anyway? More than alf ov em don't speek inglish, innit. ..I mean, wots dat about then? Itz like babies ar born speeking inglish, innit. Naw, Amerika. Theys wikkid, innit? I mean itz like center of the world like and they like tell evryone wot to do, yeah...so like u gotta be with dem or out of it like..."

.. Europe, in unison, "Bye bye little England. We won't miss you.  Ehum, by the way, you may have a little trouble holding onto Scotland! Even the North of England!! Hee hee hee".

Yes,I see what you mean.But all that stuff I knew already.I wanted to know what the....more thoughtful ant- Europe camp say.Still don't really know .

ps.Your little quote of an anti-Europe UKIP type is kind of weird....it starts of like an Essex man and then morphs into language more characteristic of black and Asian youfff ( I don't know if the type of person you are trying to mimic would use terms like " innit" and " wicked")Nigel never would!

traditional armstrong and miller speak. have you ever watched the series?

Of course,Roger.But this guy Jimmy is mixing up his lingo by switching half way through!

I confess you're right there about the switch! Oh well. On a more serious note in my opinion England ( nope, not Britain!) has always played the obnoxious, arrogant cretin doing all it can to undermine European unity by plying the "special relationship" card (...ooooohh George!! You beast, use me! ). Europe's best off without us I think.

...as for benefits to "Britain" I couldn't give a damn actually. This entity is little but a parasitic, sycophntic and selfish economy that has done its upmost to undermine financial sector reforms and thinks nothing of doing the same vis a vis international/corporate taxation reforms. I actually wish Britain the worst over the next few years and hope Europe takes vindictive actions if we leave the union :-D :-P :-D

Now look what you've done,Jimmy F!

That's just for show, I'm afraid. Remember they're all krauts originally. ;-)

As British nationals living on continental Europe we have a lot to lose if the UK disengages from its closest neighbours. Is anyone else interested in setting up a group to support the Britain Stronger In Europe campaign?

Thanks

Alex

The Brexit side is basically confusing "problems in Europe" with  "problems that can be attributed to the EU".

The EU is actually not much like the super state it is sometimes described as, spending only 1% of the total budget, compared to for example 25% for the US federal government. It's basically the common agricultural policy, aid given to less well off members for their modernisation (in exchange for which they open their markets to the richer countries), and various programs such as Erasmus.

Things that the EU is blamed for, such as not managing the refugee crisis properly, is actually and area which is the prerogatives of the states, not the union. But it's always much easier for politicans of any country to blame Europe.

For a European country to want to break off, weakening itself, the union, and perhaps encouraging others to do the same, is suicidal in the face of globalisation. Yet many Europeans seem to be attracted to the idea.

I reckon the EU is pretty much doomed to failurenow that Britain has opted out. Any opinions ?

Why? Maybe now,without Britain's constantly obstructive behaviour,they can actually get on with the project more easily?

It is true that the far right in some countries may try to whip up anti- EU sentiments and try to get popular votes on membership,like the UK did.Be interesting to see how things progress from here.

We have seen the Freedom Party in Austria come within 0.5% of winning the presidency. The Front National is looking well placed to get into the run off for the next presidential elections.  Here in Switzerland the SVP is able to direct the national dialogue on immigration and European relations. 

The far right is on the move. I think we must all be vigilant that fascism and national socialism could yet re-appear in Europe. In 1912 most people thought that all was well in Europe, but we know how that ended.

There is a (misquoted) Chinese 'curse': "may you live in interesting times". I am afraid that sums up this scenario.

Wishful thinking Richard? Anything but, actually. Without your obnoxiously selfish, insular little englanders Europe will be better off. It's a foregone conclusion that Scotland is going to stay in the EU and even Northern Ireland may follow. ..."G g g god save the queee eee!!!! .." Glug glug gllug...

Definitely not very good feeling being an English person in Europe right now.

Short term looks pretty bad ...

Medium and Long term ... I think positive both for the UK and possibly for the EU too

Yep. A dovided and weakened Europe does look good for the medium and long term. Good at least for American, Chinese et al corporations at least. Looking forward to little weakened England being forced to sign the TTIP on uncle sams terms.

No problem. Just get Swiss/French whatever nationality. Make a point of renouncing your British (.. yeah, sorry, what's that?) nationality and that may help your application. Bye bye little England. To hell with you.

Another optimist I see ....
Bren C, Jun 29, 2016 @ 19:15

Yes you're right. Absolutely. Another realist. ...and one looking forward with relish to a united Europe vindictively punishing the English for their xenophobic bigotry and selfishness. You try to undermine European unity and we'll undermine you.

you seem to be taking this situation somewhat personally .... perspective old boy, perspective.

In 10 years this will all be a little blip ....

Doom, gloom and dispair if you want ... but I prefer to hope for the best. Whats done is done .. mve on.

Nothing personal at all. Just business. There's no doom, gloom or despair at all if the EU does the right thing. Make England pay. Lets have fun. This bloviating loud mouthed arrogant little country spent nearly all its years of membership in the EU trying to undermine unity on important issues and playing the patheticly sycophantic US special relationship card. It operated on the assumption that it was entitled to all the benefits of membership with hardly any costs or positive input. Right. Now you're gone. Good. Expect nothing from your former partners. You're going to get less than nothing. Boots on the other foot now.

IF the UK actually follows throw with 'Brexit' (and I really hope they do not) then I highly doubt that this will be a 'blip' in 10 years’ time.

From a British perspective, the warnings of "Project Fear" appear to be about right, if not overly optimistic, for the UK's future. It is now clear that the fall in the Pound WILL increase inflation and reduce the quality of life for people living in Britain. There WILL be a fall in employment as finance, service and industrial companies all relocate jobs to the EU, this WILL degrade public services. As the 'Union' (between England and Scotland) crumbles and England is left out of important decision making bodies, the international influence of England WILL only wane further.

From a European perspective, there is a real possibility that 'Brexit' will embolden national socialists and other far right extremists to try to bring down the EU entirely. The EU has provided a framework for  co-operation which fostered half a century of peace and prosperity never before seen in Europe. The idea that Marine Le Pen and Nigel Farage would tear down the EU and create 'better' institutions to help 'ordinary' people is FARCICAL.

However it is not too late. 60% of the British electorate either voted to REMAIN or didn't vote at all. This isn't exactly a mandate to ruin our continent. Surely change is necessary, but Parliament is sovereign and does not need to enact the self-immolation proposed by the Leave campaign. What is important is that right-minded people coalesce behind the political leaders and parties who want to achieve what is best for Europe rather than those who are willing to say anything to progress their political career.

Jimmy ... I think you have issues.

What makes you so optimistic Bren? I ask this question because,as my original posting,ages ago,stated,I heard a lot about why we should not leave but didn't fully understand why we should.

What do you think would be the positive outcomes you refer to? I myself feel less optimistic but I would love to hear from someone who sees positive things ahead.

You're damn right I do!
Jimmy F, Jun 29, 2016 @ 23:33

Tracey,

Come to my next drinks in a week or so and we can have a chat :)

In short ...

1. the Uk never bought into the "european dream" and with closer union of the other states almost ineviatable ....  the uk was acting as a (very annoying) anchor. So .. no Uk .. poisitive for the EU.

2. World trade tariffs are pretty low compared to 40 years ago when the UK joined. Even if the UK move to WTTs, they have a huge balance of trade deficit with the rest of Europe so unlikely that tariffs would be punitive. If they were they would obviously be recipricol. The Eu had not managed to get many trade deals because of the complexities of worrying about 28 countries needs .... and pre the EU this was something that the UK was good at. I think they can be again so ..... pretty positive for the UK.

In a nutshell thats it. Anyone who thinks the uk will pull up the drawbridge, open a few flagons of cider and tell the rest of the world to go to hell doesnt really get it. For me all the UK referendum said was ... "our parliament should have the final say over our country" ... other than that and wanting to control the numbers arriving each year (which will only accelerate with the minimum wage set to rise fairly rapidly over the next few years) everything will go on pretty much as before with the exception that the UK will become a lot less focused on europe and maybe a little more on the rest of the world.

B

Hi Bren,

I am afraid that trade tariffs miss the point about the UK's trade with the EU. The City of London will lose its status as the pre-eminent financial centre of Europe not because of trade tariffs but because a failure to meet the regulatory requirements for selling its services into the market.

The UK is highly reliant on the export of services so relying on WTO style access (which is mainly focused on goods) will not help the UK in its trade balance. A structurally lower value of Pound Stirling is inevitable. This will make the British people who rely on imported goods worse off. There are many people from the WTO here in Geneva who have already told the UK that exact message.

Whilst the UK has been a 'stick in the mud' on some issues, it has also help to provide an internationalist and free trade perspective that would be missed by other EU states. Expressing a diverse range of view points and objectives through a system of dialogue and comprimise is exactly why the EU is so beneficial. History has shown us time and time again that the alternative for Europe is conflict and war.

I am sure that Michael Gove would agree with your assessment of what Brexit means for the UK. The reality is that is not what has been whipped up. The vote to leave was a coalition between 'free marketeers' who believe it is an opportunity to open up to the rest of the world and social conservatives who want to go back to the 1960s. There is no way that coalition will hold together to produce anything good.

Alex

Thanks Bren.Very interesting to see the view from the positive side.On point 2, I did hear a small businessman ( cycling shop,as it happens!)describing on BBC how,for him,dealing with one group called " Europe" was less complicated than with lots of different countries with different regulations.

business and trade is just one aspect,- there is also the academic world,funding for research, ,envirionmental protection,protection of workers' rights etc Not sure how those other areas will fare.

One possibly bad outcome - Boris Johnson as head of government - has at least now been avoided.

Services ... lets see how it pans out.

I remain optimistic in the medium term .... for everyone :)

http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2016/06/29/brexit-version-downfall-take-us-inside-boris-johnsons-bunker/

Wasn't sure whether to post this here (thought I already had!!) or in the Friday Funny Forum.  Decided on here, as there's nothing really funny about any of it.....

love it !!!

On the 100th anniversary of the battle of the Somme this is very sobering:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36130006 

Anyone advocating for the collapse of the EU should ask themselves what they are proposing to prevent nationalists ruining Europe yet again.

I dont think anyone is proposing the collapse of the eu (ok maybe a few people are but their just weird)... but I think a lot of good intentioned, sensible people are asking themselves what the eu has become over an above the common market which people in the uk last had a chance to vote on around 40 years ago .....

A (french) friend of mine said recently that for him the eu was supposed to be like an appartment building, with each of the 28 countries having their own appartment and the "eu" looking after the roof, the communal areas and the gardens. The problem is (in his words) the eu has started to tell each tennant what colour they must paint their walls, which cutlery they must use, which make and size of tv they must buy and the exact specification of the bed linen...... and each year they want to tell the tennants more and more what they must do. If you were a tennant .. would you stay ?

In the end ... I think a strong trading arrangement with lots of cross border development activity might help reset things a bit .... and protect the eu from itself going forward 
Bren C, Jul 1, 2016 @ 17:50

Dear Brin, 

I am afraid many people are supporting (or at the very least not worried about) the collapse of the EU.

The idea that the EU has made life in Europe homogenious is simply untrue. It is self evident that the process of going to school, finding a job, paying taxes, buying a flat, planning for retirement... are all totally different in France, Germany, Greece and the UK. If the EU was really controlling all aspects of daily life, how could that be so?

Free trade is the foundation of the EU and, as Ms Merkel has reminded everyone, that requires trade in all 4 areas of economic activity: goods, services, capital and labour. In order to facilitate that trade there must be some level of regulatory harmonization. This is a difficult task and the EU does try to strike a balance. Could it do better? Sure. But the only way to help is with constructive criticism.

Without the EU requiring all Western and Central European governments to engage in regular and constructive dialogue the risk for petty difference and nationalistic fever to run out of control is too great. This is exactly what happened in 1914 and led to the battle of the Somme.

dont forget though that the vast majority of countries are not in the eu .... and never will be ....

The vast majority of countries will never be the UK's main trading partner or neighbor... And never will be...

lol

Right time for a life now ... adios :)

You mean......there IS life after "Brexit"?  

People love to say "Who cares about England and it's isolationist BREXIT project". Every member of the international community should care. 

Alors que le Conseil fédéral et le parlement se creusent la tête pour trouver une solution pour gérer l’immigration sans pour autant dénoncer la libre circulation, Christoph Blocher, lui, n’y va pas par quatre chemins. Qu’importe les Bilatérales, l’important c’est le respect de la volonté du peuple. 

http://www.tdg.ch/suisse/christoph-blocher-menace-resilier-accords-bilateraux/story/29192211

As we can see the silly buggers from Brexisistan are giving us a brexistential crisis. If they get their way Glocals as a community would suffer as our numbers would dwindle. 

Vice story on the down and outs in favour or Brexit

These people would get in to an argument with me within minutes. They think England is for the English. I don't disagree. England is a mediocre place compared to others... 

According to this source there are 4.9 million brits living as emmigrants around the world. They are the single biggest nuissance population around. They say "We don't want you coming to our islands because they're overpopulated and England should be English"... Over 7 percent of the British population live abroad. Look at European Brits like me. I'm an immigrant. ;-). 

Glocals calls itself expat but it is a community of migrants. Imagine if blockhead (intentional typo) found out about our little gathering. He'd have us deported back to our home countries. 

He'd find me to be a real nuissance as I have two passports, three nationalities and born in Switzerland. I could play around and say "I want to be repatriated to Italy one day and the next day say I want to be rematriated to England (rematriation is the correct word for being deported to your mother's country of origin right? On the third day I could say I want to be repatriated to Poland because I ran out of Vodka and pierogi... 

First world problems right? ;-)

I am writing this as satire but I think that anyone who is against the freedom of people to travel and work is an unkind person. I'm trying to keep it polite. ;-)