Indeed!

Brilliant  interview with Robert Malley on NPRone week prior to the vote

http://www.npr.org/2012/11/28/166067920/the-middle-east-a-web-of-topsy-turvy-alliances

I'm a bit pissed off with The Netherlands for abstaining. I'm sure the resolution had some details that they didn't agree with, but that shouldn't have come in the way of sending the right message. The Dutch people clearly support an independent state, and so should the government. 

This is a small but important step that could eventually lead to an end of the conflict. 

Is that so? Do the Dutch people support Palestina. (not saying I don't).

I think traditionally Holland is always been quite pro-Israel. However, I think abstaining is weak... Just say yes or no.

Supporting Palistine and being pro-Israel aren't mutually exclusive. It's true that the Dutch government has always been supportive of Israel as a state, but that's not the same thing as supporting the way Israel represses Palestines, or agreeing with military action in Gaza. I think that Dutch people are anti-firing-rockets and anti-retalliating-with-completely-disproportional-force. 

I wish I could find it now: I've seen an international survey about a month ago that showed that 94% of people blame Israel for the conflict. 

I don't blame Israel, and I don't blame the Palestinians. They should drop their weapons, and start talking. (both parties) - this thing is way to complex and am afraid that we will not see the end of it....

A quick Google search got me this:

http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=270291

I got it wrong with my 94%, but 17 out of 22 surveyed countries have negative opinion of Israel. The Netherlands isn't there, but Germans are overwhelmingly negative about Israel (69% negative, 12% postive). 

They have been "talking" for years.. I think its high time.. They should start hugging ;)

My personal Opinion, Isreal voilated the most UN resoluations than anyother country inthe world, That makes him a perfect candidate for being hated by 138 countries, 

These muslims and jews are fighting for centuries for nothing and they will keep on fighting until 21st december 2012, can't say anything that after! 

I have heard some disturbing news that Hamas cooked up the stories of casualities to get the world's attention as well as sympathy. They attacked Israel and provoked a retaliation and then presented all this news to the world media to gain sympathy.

I don't know what is the truth. But if that is true, it is really quite dangerous.

Our world is such a mess...

That was high time! Food for hope.

@ Brad: Your videos remind me of a picture which burned itself into my brain in 1989 when there was one of the many peaks of violence. I was in England and the news were showing two Israeli soldiers standing on each side of a Palestinian on a hilltop, They were stretching out the Palestinian's arms and a third soldier broke them with a rock. My landlady, a somewhat orthodox jew, was standing in front of the TV, crying.

It is outragious what subtle and less subtle violence, oppression and land grabbing is going on in Israel and Palestine every day, and it is even more outragious that the Israelis get away with it! This MUST stop.

Two thumbs up, this allows for real peace talks to happen between 2 equal states. And forces Hamas to give way to more moderate fatah. 

As an American I think this vote by the UN is a a very good thing.

For a couple of reasons.

On the optimisitic side it may present a situation where  some Palestinians would think twice about engaging in terrorism like they have done thousands in the times in the past. Finally they have something to lose.

Also this gives the USA an unprecedented and legitimate opportunity to exit the UN altogether. Seriously, what is the point of the USA paying for almost half the total annual cost of the United Nations if their intention is totally antithetical to the interests and security of the USA and its people?  And if we are to stay then why not split the membership cost equally across member states? Why not implement metrics to qualify funding for UN programs?

It's also a great opportunity for the USA to end foreign aid to the middle east and Africa . Clearly it's a very poor investment because they all hate us and our Jewish allies too.

Anti-Semitism is not new to Europeans or Islamic countries or even some members on Glocals. It's a clearly a way of life for the majority. I just don't agree with that majority. But with this new recognition of Palestine. I think there is an opportunity to press for peace because the former status quo of nearly daily acts of blatant terrorism by Palestinian factions in the occupied territories are now essentially quantified by international law as state sponsored acts of terrorism.

Many of the nations that have essentially "stuck thier neck out" for Palestine with this vote don't won't want to get screwed by essestially being accoplices to acts of terror against women and children with thier vote.Even though many of them realize that the risk of Palestinian suicide bombers and unprevoked rocket attacks on Jewish civiian targets is almost certain. There is an optimism that a page has been turned. And I support that optimism even if it is unrealistic and naive. It's better than nothing.

The fact of the matter is that IDF has the military capability to kill every human being in the occupied territories in a weekend.  But for over 40 years they have shown tremendous restraint in preportion to the egregious and horrific acts commited againt the their Jewish population. So why haven't they? If it truly is an "apartheid and a genocide" as claimed by President Abbas. Why don't his statements jibe with the reality?

This vote is a very positive thing in it's result. But I think there was a HUGE failure in the language of the resolution to not qualify this upgrade in status with guarantees for Israels security. Because I truly believe that Jews have the right to exist and the right to their own nation as well. And I know that idea is not popular with everyone on Glocals, even with some of my friends,  but I am firm in my conviction regardless.

Mohatma Ghandi said " an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." 

It's doubtful that there will ever be a non-violent leader in the new Palestine. So until  then I support the Jewish people and the right of return to the Holy Land for all Jews. I know their are inequities in Israel between Jews and non-Jews. But there is are also very similar or worse inequities in amongst Palestinian between Muslims and non-Muslims.  This is where as a Christian I take exception to both the Israelis and the Palestinians for their longstanding joint persecution of Chistians. But I hopeful with this vote will open opportunities postive change in the future.

PS: The interview posted by NadCan is worth listening to. You would be doing your brain a dissservice by reading the article as it is not really congruent with the totality of the full interview. We call this "cherry picking" journalism in the USA.

I wonder whether this will put an end to the Israeli illegal occupation of Palestinian soil, hmm...  One way to have solved the problem years ago would have been to withdraw & it would have stopped decades of unnecessary violence (on both sides).  JT.

I also believe that the media has way manipulated our way of thinking.... There is two sides of the story.

Brilliant selection of movies; I was there yesterday and saw two of them, "Fix me" and "The Arab Telephone".  The first one takes place in Ramallah and the second one in an Arab village near Nazareth.

Recommended to anyone with a genuine interest in getting to know the people behind the politics.

where did you learn the history? I have feelings you were bad in history at school same like, anyhow i am also trying to improve my knowlege lets do it together before 21st december, 

I was not going to be drawn into this, but it is just too tempting...

1. What does the "last straw" theme have to do with the subject in question?

2. Nobody queries the difference in mentalities, but this does not give one group the right to oppress and try to eliminate the other.

3. Denying the facts does not turn around the truth.

You clearly got the wrong end of the stick .

Both sides know why they believe the way they do.... Whether it's justified or not, whether their belief is based on historical facts, culture, education or what they've heard in the media, they will keep on believing in what they do, no matter they're right or wrong. So what's the use of keeping this war going on in the forums? 

Just my opinion...

There are many Jews, both in Israel and in the diaspora who disagree wholeheartedly with you. And many of them have extensive knowledge of the history, geography, politics and so on of the region. These include former high-ranking members of the military and intelligence communities.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/24/opinion/peace-without-partners.html

http://jstreet.org/blog/post/j-streets-position-on-the-palestinian-bid-at-the-united-nations-general-assembly

Maybe it will be easier to find partners to talk to if you stop characterising the other side as "primitive tribes" who are "poor in their mentality" and who can think of nothing better to do with their lives than to blow themselves up on a bus or maybe come to Switzerland to "rob, steal and rape".

Yes, having worked in US foreign policy, I can certainly say that I comprehend the complexity of the politics of the area. You are not alone in your knowledge and experience, whatever that might be -- either on the forum or in the world. 

In addition, as a US taxpayer, I can say that there are many in our country who are tired for paying to prop up Israel's security, particularly under Bibi Netanyahu. 

There are more than enough faults and corruption -- on both sides. People such as former head of Shin Bet Ami Ayalon and others certainly know what they are talking about, much more than you or I.

 The inability to see that certain members of the current Israeli government are impeding progress just as much as certain members of the Palestian Authority and Hamas is naive, short-sighted and frankly, just blind to the facts on the ground.

Finally, there is certainly a difference between supporting the State of Israel -

We all come to the table here with certain experiences, background knowledge, biases and so on. Many, many Israelis have pointed out and emphasized the failings, corruption and issues with the current government and its policies, particularly that of encouraging settlers in disputed territories. 

And just who is it you think is controlling all the money laundering here? It ain't the petty criminals on the streets. They are in suits in banks and governments. They steal more and will never get put in jail, either in this country nor anywhere else. 

Hi Amir,

I assume the point you are trying to make is that there are many crimes comitted in Geneva by muslims / arabs. I'm not going to discuss the statistics her as there are several heated threads about that already (neither do I have time to come to a police station and ask, even though it seems like a win-win situation as regards free food!). Anecdotally at least, it seems to be North Africans who get most of the blame*. I've never heard of a Palestinian crime wave in Geneva!

If you really wish you could find someone to talk to on the other side then start by trying to understand them, not generalising. All arabs are not Palestinians (and most North Africans are not arabs at all). All muslims are not criminals. All Palestinians are not Hamas.

I'm sure you would like it if people commenting on Israel understood that not all Jews are Israelis, not all Israelis are West Bank settlers, and so on. So please extend the same courtesy to the other side.

* Of course it's mostly about numbers of people. The statistics always show that the most crimes in Switzerland are committed by... the Swiss. Well, there are a lot of them in Switzerland so it's natural. Similarly, north Africans are one of the biggest ethnic minorities in Geneva and by far the biggest in France, so it's natural that they commit more crimes than say Uruguayans or Singaporeans.

And some good news for a change, showing how people can come together across the divide:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20447422

The SESAME synchrotron facility is being built in Jordan as a collaboration between scientists from across the middle East. Scientists from Israel, Palestine and Iran among others are working together to build something that will benefit the whole region and in the process meeting, talking to and understanding each other.

More initiatives like this are urgently needed. Otherwise, because of the blockade, few Israelis ever meet Palestinians or vice versa. If both sides only learn about the other through the propaganda they ae fed, I see little hope for the next generation.

Here is a great longstanding one: Daniel Barenboim's East-West Divan Orchestra: http://www.west-eastern-divan.org/

Amir - I am really enjoying your posts. You bring a different perspective to the discussion, which is helpful. I don't know enough about the conflict to confirm or dispute your points, and I won't argue with you on them. 

But by saying that 'your knowledge is unquestionable' you discredit yourself. You are essentially saying that you know all there is to know, and that you are not open to other people's views. To me, this is a sign of ignorance. Surely, the right approach is to listen other people's arguments, weigh them based on your own knowledge, and then compare them with your own views to keep learning. By closing yourself off because your knowledge is 'unquestionable', you waste that opportunity.

The way I see it, if you ignore history and look at the current situation, the only solution is to separate the two parties. Allow Palestine to develop a viable economy, and give them more options than resorting to terrorism. The polarization around the conflict, with Israel backed by the West and Palestine by the Arab countries, has been unhelpful because it has given both sides a license to maintain their course. The UN's support of Palestine breaks this pattern and may lead to a situation that is helpful for both. 

I'm eager to read your response, and I will treat it seriously.

You're completely correct Amir in that you didn't say that outright...as that would take balls to do. Something someone as gutless as you would just alude to or infer. 

Maybe. I expect that Wikipedia gives me facts, which is helpful, but it's also interesting to learn what people of both sides of the conflict think. 

I don't agree with many things that Amir writes, but he is the only one in this thread that seems to look at things from the Israeli point of view. In Western Europe you normally don't hear this side of the story, so I like reading his posts. 

I consider myself intelligent enough to give Amir's posts their proper weight. His view is unbalanced, and for me his 'facts' are unverifiable (at least without a lot of effort), and I take that into account.

But at the very least he makes the point that there IS a different side to the story. This in itself is valuable to keep in mind. 

I think being pro-israel is just not done these days, and that's why I'm neutral in this whole thing.. But there are two sides to each issue, and I can clearly see where Amir comes from. The brainwashing goes two ways - the Palestinians aren't sweet angels either, even though they want to make us believe that. 

I have noticed in the latest footage I've seen that there is always "an uncle" of a victim of violence when there is a western camera crew. He is always armed with at least one phone - and is very quick to respons to questions with the same answers. It's all about press coverage I guess.

I'm not saying that what is going on is right, and was quite dissapointed that Israel announced to keep on building new settlements, after Palestina was given it's new status. It's a bit like a little child who doesn't get it's ways, and therefore just does what it wants, even though it knows it's in the wrong. 

Without dialog this thread, and in real life,  the situation will go nowhere. I know they have been talking for ages. And am afraid that they will go on for ages. It seems however that everybody is forgetting what's going on in Syria, or more worrying, how the new Egyptian president is already pulling all power to himself as well. This thing is far from over, and I'm afraid that this image below will be an utopia..... 

These are exactly the kind of comments which derail this thread. Shaun is entitled to his opinion, but so is Amir and so am I in being neutral. I can see where the normal day Israeli come from, but I can also understand where the Palestinians come from. And again even outside the troubled area it's proven here that people from both sides are just not willing to listen to each other. 

I have seen hart breaking documentaries about Palestinian farmers who's farms where destroyed by Israeli soldiers for nothing, farms that where built even with eu aid. But also Israeli families who lost their loved ones because of cowardly attacks on busses. On people who are just getting on with their lives. 

Now tell me, who is fucking right, on who is wrong? Who's the winner? There are only bloody losers all the time, Israel should count its blessing and give up the occupied territories. Give back part of the land, and invest part of the money now spent on weapons on the Palestinians. People who have a life - and something to live for will not pick up guns and shoot rockets. They got too much to lose. But a man who has nothing - has also nothing to lose. 

Just my two cents. Besides this there is so much more wrong on this planet that one would almost becomes depressed. 

This picture reminds me of what some Swiss friends did a couple of months ago. They went as a family to Jordan and helped in a kids camp that children from all the surrounding countries attended. These children were encouraged to see the human value in each other, no matter where they came from and some ideas planted in their hearts about each other by their parents were broken. They were taught to play together and work as a team. 

I think this is a much more valuable work than any words that can be thrown in the face of persons who have different opinions and perspectives of the matter. This is something done towards peace between countries. And I love this idea, because it is done through children. 

It might look like a little work compared to the amount of hatred between people of these regions, but at least it was a little step towards peace.

Some people have been very insulting with Amir so let me counterbalance that. Thanks Amir for all your posts! I know it is not easy to be pro-Israel nowadays and I think you have handled this thread very courageously. Count me as your fan number 1  !

There have always been lots people that hate the Jews. Some will even try to call themselves neutral while at the same time making statements that Jews should pay off the Palestinians with cash and land in exchange for allowing the Jews to live on this earth. 

It takes a lot of courage to stand up for the minority when they under attack from the majority. Especially when that minority was attacked first and without cause. As is the case with the Jews in Israel. And as was the case with the Jews in Europe during World War Two. 

There are famines, brutal dictatorships and genocides going on all over the planet right now but still so many folks are obsessed with sticking it to the Jews in Israel. It is an incredible and almost unbelievable phenomenon. It's mind boggling to me. 

I respectfully disagree with those folks that believe that Israel has no right to their own security or the land that is theirs not only by right but also as spoils of a conflict that they neither sought nor started. So I stand tall with my Jewish brothers and sisters in Israel and anywhere else on the planet. Never Again. Whether it's a brutal dictator or religious terrorists. Never Again. And when I say I stand tall I am talking about more than words. 

While I think it's fantastic that the Palestinian people are finally recognized as legitimate nation.  I would caution their supporters to not be tricked into supporting acts of terrorism willingly or unwittingly if that is not their true intent. My hope is that this new Palestinian nation will recognize that the onus to establish trust is now on them. All they have to do is not committ acts of aggression and terrorism. Think of it as a credit rating. When we are young adults we have no credit. And as we get older and pay out debts on schedule and in good faith we establish a good credit rating. So is the same for a new nation regardless of the presence of conflict or not. 

Perfectly right. Now it's time the israeli government stop violating the international public law and illigal agression and blocus, in what refers to Palestine