The nasty manipulations are not conducted of the EU, but of the rating agencies, which are all placed at Wall Street and fighting an Economic War against the Euro. The EU is just very bad prepared for that and forgot to set clear rules for the Monetary Union. Now, this has to be made under the big pressure of the financial markets.

In the end the Eurozone needs more political integration to maintain the Monetary Union. Otherwise the Monetary Union will collaps sooner or later.

I hope there is no civil war and I don't see that the Greeks would wish one. Nor do I see the sort of organised opposition that couldlead one.

Perhaps Papandreous will have a change of heart like Kuchner in Argentina, default (although debts were substantially repaid), decouple the currencey (unpegging the peso to the dollar at one to one parity in Argentina, suffer a fiscal quarter and then see incredible growth for years until the 2008 crisis) i.e leave the Euro zone where there is no national government ability to adjust monetary policy (putting all in a straitjacket provided by the ECB) to devalue a Drachma making imports more expensive and exports cheaper.

Previous government spending deficits and debts exceding the limits set by the EU were conveniently and through creative accounting by Wall Street firms (Goldman Sachs?) manipulated to make it seem Greece was meeting the norms.

I don't see rating agencies fighting a war against the Euro (who was it that just recently downgraded the US rating while the majority didn't?) but rather people in these and other financial institutions worldwide doing what comes naturally (and competing with and against each other) to make a profit through monetary speculation and transfers globally of trillions occurring in seconds through computerised systems. It is this casino capitalism and finacialisation of Western economies (while manufacturing is shipped overseas to cheap non-unionised labour sweatshops) that is largely responsible for creating bubbles, transferring wealth upwards, demanding austerity of the poor and middle class, privitisation of public commons etc.

It must be more than 20 years ago that I first read Noam Chomsky discuss the eventual 'third worldization' of the West by the same neo-liberal IMF/WB government accepted practises of opening up developing contries' financial markets to foreign competition, reduction of tariffs, reduction in public services and subsidies. It was a prediction that in my mind seems abundantly apparent to be occurring.

French and German banks made bad loans (due dilligence?!) and now expect the population to repay them for their mistakes!

http://www.transparency.org/news_room/in_focus/2011/tackling_corruption_in_greece

"In March, Transparency International - Greece (TI-Greece) published its 2010 Annual Survey on Corruption in Greece covering the period between July and December. It estimated that bribery cost Greece €632 million in 2010 (US$837 million). ....

"The overall picture, taken over the four years since the survey started in 2007, is more troubling: on average more than one in ten people report having to pay a bribe for some kind of service, predominantly to public sector institutions.

In 2010, for example, more than a third of people surveyed who used a public health sector facility reported paying a bribe to secure a service or jump a queue.

Transparency International’s 86-country public survey, the Global Corruption Barometer, tells the same story. 75 per cent of Greek people surveyed in June 2010 thought corruption was increasing, and 18 per cent of households who had contact with a public service in the previous 12 months had paid a bribe.

A study, published last year by Transparency International, shows that lengthy proceedings and short statutes of limitations pose significant problems for prosecuting corruption in Greece. It is particularly striking that statutes of limitations for parliamentarians and ministers are shorter than for regular citizens. Greeks named political parties as the institution they perceived to be the most corrupt."

Granted bribery petty and large are problems especially for poorer people who have to pay them. This petty bribery seems to be endemic in India though I got my license plate in Belgium in days rather than months through a good bottle of wine provided by my brother-in-law who knew the right person. Also Belgium was the first time I'd heard of working in 'het zwart' (in black) (under the table? - not sure of the English term).

Bribes or working outside legal contracts can deprive countries of tax revenues but I wonder if any of this has much to do with the Greek fiscal difficulties and squeeze being put on Greece and consequently the poorer and middle classes of Greece when the EU is promising billions so that Greece can pay back the billions to the not terrible duely dilligent French and German banks. How do you get out of debt due to loans by taking out new loans and paying that money back immediately? Sounds more like a shakedown to me!

Indeed, this is a big problem. The banks are earning big profits in good times and they are socialising their losses in bad times. This is not how a good market economy should work and it only works, because we have financial anarchy on the global level. To avoid that, there has to be much more regulation of the global financial markets. But even after the financial crises in the last years nearly nothing happened, because every country tries to defend its national privileges instead of finding a common solution and of course the financial sector does everything to prevent more financial regulation as well. How could we solve this problem?

Tax evasion can be a key factor in a government's ability to pay its bills.

"Widespread evasion feeds the Greek attitude that only the stupid pay taxes. Little wonder that Greece's tax revenue is among the lowest in the European Union, 19.8% of GDP (excluding social security) compared to an E.U. average of 26.1%. (Italy's take is 29.1%, Portugal's 24.5%, Spain's 20.7%). Only a handful of E.U. countries — the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Romania — do worse. And none of them use the euro......

Greece's tax-collection system is an antiquated mess. The state's various financial-information databases are haphazard and fragmented. No single program can pull up all the data about a single taxpayer; without tedious manual cross-checks, there's no way to flag the Kolonaki doctor who is declaring a pittance but living in a multimillion-dollar apartment. So decentralized is the whole system that until recently, Greece's government didn't even know how many people it had on its payroll."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1958721-2,00.html

 http://www.christiantoday.com/article/church.fears.dictatorship.in.debtburdened.greece/28160.htm  

The Greek Orthodox Church in Great Britain has spoken recently of its concerns for Greece as the country struggles to free itself from a crippling debt crisis.

Charis Mettis, spokesman for the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain, said he was “very worried” about Greece. “It is a very serious situation,” he told Christian Today. “We hope that Greece won’t be landed with a dictatorship. Something similar happened in 1967, when politicians could not agree and the army moved in. “We hope that won’t happen this time.”

He said that people in Greece were feeling “desperate” and that the widespread cuts, particularly to wages, were “hurting” them. Mr Mettis was critical of the approach by other European countries, which have attached stringent terms to their bailout of the Greek economy. “The European countries are pushing Greece to the extreme and it’s a volatile country, it’s not like Ireland,” he said.

Mr. Mettis forgets to add that the army that moved in 1967 and installed the Colonel’s Junta had the full blessing of the Church.

Interesting to note that Mr. Mettis does not mention the fact that The Greek Orthodox Church owns property worth some €700 billion and that at a recent announcement by Papandreu’s government to start taxing churches got the Orthodox Archbishop of Athens Leronymos to reply that taxing the churches was unconstitutional and “unprincipled.”

With the exception of Simon H (as germany still has an economy to boast about), I'd rathered if you kept your comments to yourself...i aj sure you are not exactly delighted regarding the situatiions in your countries be it UK or Spain.

Being the man that puts his money where his mouth is, I shall respond to your thoughts.  In the meantime I would appreciate if you refrained fom making speculative posts.

Not speculative but fact-based.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/newsbook/2011/06/greek-debt-crisis

 I think you're missing out the whole point of this political forums. There are an open space where everybody can express their views on any given matter provided this is done with respect.

I am sorry you have taken this debate as something personal, but I am certainly not going to keep my comments to myself in a matter that is important to me because the economy of my country of origin is not boasting.

For your information, I have close family in Athens and Greece is a country very dear to my heart and which I know quite well.

Maybe you could share some of your thoughts about Greece on this forum.  I am sure we could al benefit from it.

I wonder if all these countries include the same basket of items in their calculation of GDP? How about various other taxes e.g VAT, toll roads etc. Tax on income is just one slice of the pie.

Also your point about a dysfunctional tax accounting system undermines your arguments comparing Greece's rate with other countries because if the data is unreliable how can you compare?

Anecdotally I have heard from Greeks that tax evasion by the rich and doctors is a problem - an urban myth? Also I'm sure for one reason or another others on the lower side of the SE scale will be paid under the table or in cash, so i don't underestimate the potential problem but still suspect it pales in comparison to the size of the bailouts of loans done with poor due dilligence (hence the French and Dutch banks should pay for their mistakes and not the Geek population).

Well, I will try to see whether I can find some OECD figures. Of course tax on income is simply one slice of the pie. In general, when OECD looks at these figures, the taxes are all calculated in the same way.

In fact, there are undoubtedly a number of factors operating in this situation. However, citing tax evasion, government ineptitude and/or corruption does not mean I believe that the people on the street should suffer for the faults of the government.

While I look up my data, let me ask you whether you believe the government doesn't bear a significant responsibility in this mess? 

Leo and all other demeaning individuals: one month hence and no civil war! 

Nefertiti, congrats on your newly assigned moderator role.  Having family in Greece does not however qualify you in commenting on this issue.

The recent econimic challenges are attributed to two factors: the previous goverment and Greeks themselves.  It is common knowledge that the last goverment literally "bought" itself to power.  Promises of guaranteed employment for all voters was a recipe for disaster.  Unsustainable!  Of course this tragic prime minister kept to his promise...at the detriment of a huge economic hole.  A job requiring a sole person to do, was in fact resourced by 5 sometimes 6 individuals.  New job specs were created.  Extra salaries, pensions, benefits.  Complete chaos.

Furthermore, Greeks have never been savers.  They would spend their easy-earned money...but not in Greece YES!  They would trip to Bulgaria and gamble, shop etc.  Cost of goods was kept artificially low.  A kg of tomatoes for 1euro!!!! Comon.  Thus, for the good life of 4 years, the country would suffer for the next 20 years.

There was also a number of scandals involving the Orthodox church, a number of MPs adding to their wealth.  Take it this way, the fat Prime Minister they all voted is no longer in the country.  And why would he care.  Why should I care? The same people who voted for this man with an intelligence less of an amoeba are now suffering...and good. I, of course, voted differently.  Am educated, I have vision and no pity.  Greece was, it isnt and never will be again.

On a separate note, Translator, unless you have something beneficial to say, please please please dont bother adding links and crap to this forum topic.

I can see that from your comments, you certainly failed to provide any value added, even after apparently trying to give it some thought.  Keep trying...

Next time, you might try reading some links, though.  Facts usually help inform an argument.  

http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/06/21/can_anything_save_greece

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/6/39/44785912.pd

At Transparency International's Corruption Index, one can see that Greece ranks only slightly higher than Albania.. 3.3 and 3.5 respectively.  The chart and methodology can be found at this link for those who care to debate intelligently, 

http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010/results

Additional links forthcoming...

On a more positive note I've always had a good time in Greece and think highly of the Greek people are think they are really friendly.  Not to mention there's good local wine on the peloponnese peninsula

Thank you Chris.  I just would like to say that being an educated man, you know as well as I do that no particular "qualifications" are required to comment on this or any other issue. 

I fully agree about the local wine on the peloponnese :-)

I frequently hear about the lazy Spanish, Portuguese etc. Many commentators at the cbc.ca website attribute all of Greece's economics to Greeks living beyond their means etc. However recently I read an article stating among other things that Greeks work many more hours pper person per year than the Germans. Now one can cherrypick data and interpret it multiple ways but this OECD chart is interesting in dispelling the myth of laziness. Compare Spain, Portugal and Greece with the U.K. and Germany for example in number of hours worked.

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=LEVEL

Don't bother.
Some of these peoples governments are already paying for it anyways. I don't know if its the greek foxiness or the EU gullibility when you get people with so much compassion us...

A meeting to discuss/argue for this in detail would be most preferable people.