I cried like a baby today with emotions when I saw the pics of Gilad getting together with his parents today. That kid spent 5.5 in near solitute, without any contact with his loved ones or with any humanarian agencies, and without knowing if or when he'll get out. I can't express how happy I am that he's out. 

Israel paid a heavy price for it tho. 

We can be happy for the 1000 Palestinians too.

First read what some of them did Alain, and then you decide if you're happy they're now back into free society. 

I agree with you Nir. But this day is a good day for the two sides. Freedom for both sides and a better future seem be on way. I hope so.

What can I tell you Alain, I wish with all my heart that you're right and that a better future will arrive.  

Enjoy your bliss...

Casuistik:

That's sad, although most folks who know Hamas and its supporters wouldn't be surprised by it. 

There's a perception that Hamas and its supporters are rationale folks, that are after a real win-win rationale peace place. It ain't the case: these guys want to destroy Israel, and want to become martyrs while doing it. That's why as long as they're in power and as long as their approach gets wide support on the groud, it's going to be next to impossible to cut a peace agreement. Very sad for everyone. 

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/ny-times-shalit-deal-shows-netanyahu-can-reach-mideast-peace-but-won-t-1.390980

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/19/opinion/gilad-shalits-release.html

Excellent editorial from NY Times

"Both Mr. Netanyahu and Hamas were looking for a political win after Mr. Abbas grabbed the international spotlight — and saw his popularity soar — when he asked the United Nations last month to grant his undefined country full membership.

Mr. Netanyahu twisted himself in an ideological knot to get this deal. Only five months ago, he wanted to cut off tax remittances to the Palestinian Authority and urged the United States to halt aid because Mr. Abbas tried to forge a unity government with Hamas, which controls Gaza.

One has to ask: If Mr. Netanyahu can negotiate with Hamas — which shoots rockets at Israel, refuses to recognize Israel’s existence and, on Tuesday, vowed to take even more hostages — why won’t he negotiate seriously with the Palestinian Authority, which Israel relies on to help keep the peace in the West Bank?

Mr. Netanyahu’s backers claim that his coalition is so fragile that he can’t make the compromises needed to help revive peace negotiations. But he was strong enough to go against the grief-stricken families of those Israelis killed by the Palestinian prisoners he just freed. “I know that the price is very heavy for you,” he wrote to them. Why can’t he make a similarly impassioned appeal for a settlement freeze for the sake of Israel’s security?.."

I'll tell you why Translator: cos he ain't a principle-based leader, but an opportunistic leader. He says one thing and then says another, and says one thing and does another. 

Good to hear you say that, Nir.

This "deal" undercuts the whole argument that Israel can't negotiate with Hamas, let alone the Palestinian Authority.

I don't think this deal undercuts the argument that Israel can't negotiate with Hamas.

Israel can negotiate with Hamas over prisoner swaps, as was done now.

But Israel can't negotiate with Hamas about a peace agreement as long as Hamas says "my mission is to kill Israel, regardless of what borders Israel has". You just can't negotiate peace with someone who has that objective. 

I think the day Hamas says "OK, let's talk about a land for Israel and a land for Palestinians, side by side", Israel will be far more likely to talk. 

As the NY Times editorial points out, Netanyahu has blocked every single opportunity to move forward towards peace with the Palestinian Authority -- a position which would clearly and convincingly isolate Hamas.

It seems pretty clear that Netanyahu is perfectly prepared to deal with Hamas when it benefits his hard-line stances and presents him with the perfect photo opportunitiy.

Whatever happened to the Muammar brothers?  The day before the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit two Palestinian civilians in Gaza were detained and arrested without charge.  They have not been heard from since.

http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=103080

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/10/18/noam_chomsky_on_israel_palestine_prisoner

Amnesty International on harsh prison conditions for Palestinian prisoners.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/israel-hamas-prisoner-swap-casts-harsh-light-detention-practices-all-sides-2011-10-

ICRC regrets the fact that Gilad Shalit was denied visits by the Red Cross and that Palestinian prisoners are denied visits by relatives.

http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/news-release/2011/israel-palestine-news-2011-10-18.htm

ICRC in Israel and the occupied territories.

http://www.icrc.org/eng/where-we-work/middle-east/israel-occupied-territories/index.jsp

Trans:

I don't have a good answer about the negotiations with the Palestinian Authority. In my over-simplified mind they would be a decent partner to negotiate with.

Nir

Shaun:

I'm sure there's some legal definition somewhere, and that the point can be argued to death, but it won't matter: how people consider Shalit will depend on their personal views. 

Here's an analogy: if a UK or US soldier would be taken by the Taliban and held in a cave in Afghanistan for 6 years without any outside contact, then some folks would refer to him as a kidnapped soldier while other folks - mostly Taliban I guess - would call him a POW. 

Caustistik:

The bliss you mentioned is likely to be even shorter than expected. Today another one of the freed prisoners said he's sad he didn't get to be a martyr in the 1st round, and he hopes to get there in the 2nd round. At lease the guy is consistant.

Nir

by the way

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/8836933/Gilad-Shalit-release-freed-Palestinian-prisoner-vows-to-sacrifice-her-life.html

Wafa al-Bis insisted she would seize any opportunity to mount another suicide mission and encouraged dozens of cheering schoolchildren to follow her example.

Aha, I saw that Casuistic was faster than me :-) but I've got the link

By the way too

Fanatism and intolerence are on the both side.

http://www.jonathan5742.com/Right_Wing_Zionist_Homepage/Kahane.htm

See specially the Baruch Goldtein's grave and look on internet who he is.

Freedom for Israel and Palestinia.

Alain:

Yes, there's fanatics on both sides, and the Israeli example you brought is a good one.

But there's a huge difference between how fanatics in Israel and in Gaza are treated by others.

In Israel, fanatics like the one you used in your example are expelled from the system (Kahana's movement was made illegal), thrown in jail for their actions, and labeled as fanatics (or worse) by main stream media.

In Gaza, suicide bombers who encourage kids to go kill themselves are hailed by Hamas as role models and are portraied in local media as heros.  

Nir

I see your point, but ultra right thing exists everywhere by the way  you haven't discovered something new yet, try harder

I agree with you at 90% Nir. Not at 100% because as you know too many Israelians see Arabs as animals or terrorists.

Israeli troops killed 15 people (or more ?) and wounded more than a hundred others on the border with Lebanon last May during a protest by Palestinian refugees. Israelian army asked them to stop and they didn't. The result is a massacre, in my opinion.

I am glad for Guilad Schalit.

What I wanted to say is only that I believe in a better future between Israelians and Palestinians. It cannot be worse than in the past. 

Alain:

I agree with you 110% that things now are bad, and I hope with all my heart they'll get better.

My main point on this mini-discussion was that as long as Hamas (who controls Gaza and who has the support of most Palestinias in Gaza) believes the only way forward is to destroy Israel by any means possible, there can't be peace.

Nir

To what Nir wrote

"Shaun:

'm sure there's some legal definition somewhere, and that the point can be argued to death, but it won't matter: how people consider Shalit will depend on their personal views.

Here's an analogy: if a UK or US soldier would be taken by the Taliban and held in a cave in Afghanistan for 6 years without any outside contact, then some folks would refer to him as a kidnapped soldier while other folks - mostly Taliban I guess - would call him a POW."

It's perfectly legal to capture an active soldier in a combat zone.

You talk about kidnapping a soldier. In this case there was no kidnapping nor hostage taking. Shalit was an active soldier at the time, it was totally legal to capture him. It is, however, a war crime to abduct civilians from occupied territory and hold them elsewhere.

Nir also claims that

"In Israel, fanatics like the one you used in your example are expelled from the system (Kahana's movement was made illegal), thrown in jail for their actions, and labeled as fanatics (or worse) by main stream media.

In Gaza, suicide bombers who encourage kids to go kill themselves are hailed by Hamas as role models and are portraied in local media as heros. "

any proof for this being true or it's just a personal opinion?

Shaun

I agee with you and Nir while talking about the US/UK-Taliban scenario.

My point was that Shalit's status is not a matter of personal view, as Nir claimed.

There is a legal point and it is that there was no war crime in capturing an active soldier from a combat zone but it is illegal to abduct civilians from occupied territory and holding them elsewhere. Legal - illegal. It's all in the Geneva Convention.

I'm not saying Shalit was not a POW. But I am saying he was a legal one.

Amy:

I'm not a lawyer so can't argue the legal status of Shalit to any depth. I know tho, from following a bit of the legal debate that went on in the media, that the legal issue is far less black-and-white that you made it to be. It can be debated a lot, but not by me. 

My main point tho is not on what the legal status is, but on the fact that the legal status - what ever it is - won't do much to form people's views on this topic. The topic is so emotional, that anyone who follows it makes up their minds based on their own beliefs and values, not based on legal discussions. For example, Shaun will always see Shalit's taking as fair play, and I'll always see it as not justified. I don't think any legal debate between lawyers will change that.    

As for proof of how Hamas views suicide bombers: come on, if you follow affairs in Gaza even just a little bit you're surely away that Hamas not only supports suicide bombers, but also trains and sends them to their missions. 

Nir

Try harder. Hmmmm. Well, it's no small point given that the right wing is in control of the Israeli government. And that right-wing government has consistently:

1) supported the construction of ultra right-wing settlements;

2) mistreated Palestinian civilians; and

3) blocked the peace process.

If Netayahu can negotiate with Hamas to exchange 1000 Palestinians for one Israeli soldier, he can certainly move forward on the peace process.

And frankly, in other situations, including in South Africa and Northern Ireland, hardened enemies have negotiated peace settlements, even while still swearing eternal hatred for each other.

The US and the world would probably be a lot better off if our government drastically cut aid to Israel....maybe that would make Netanyahu try harder.

In regard to the statments about the harsh treatment of Palestinians prisoners in Israeli prisons - 

See the news bradcast by the Egyptian television, on the day of the release of the 500 prisoners in the Schalit deal. The interviewer asks the freed prisoners, now in Gaza, what was the most difficult thing being in Israeli prison for a few years. You know what the answer was?
MICROECONOMICS.

The Palestinian ex-prisoner, who murdered Israelis a few years ago and survived his own bomb blast somehow, not only recieved full medical care by the Israelis, but while in jail he and his friends have been granted the liberty to study at a special university set up in jail, for their education.

This was done while the Israeli soldiers sat almost 5 and a half years in a prison cell somewhere, denied of sunlight and red cross visits, denied company, and was not even treated for the wounds he suffered from scraps and shrads he recieved on the day he was kidnapped.

First of all, I would like to believe that you have enough wits to recognize a typo when you see one. Clearly it was meant to be "soldier", in single. But it becomes obvious to me you only seem to want to argue without reason and get agitated even by a clear typo, so you would excuse me if I would not fall into a demagogic trap here.

it was touching to see Shalit reunited with his family. people before politics, everytime. it wasn't just him who was released from prison that day, but his mum, dad and all his family and friends. who of us could live a normal life with a son or brother in prison, never knowing how he was? hell on earth for the poor family.

netanyahu was shameful, typical politican, posing with Shalit as if he's the big hero. oh please. get out of the camera lens you bloated old goat and leave that young guy alone to heal in peace with the people who really love him around him.

and i'll keep saying it, there is no excuse for the continued development of settlements. it is so unbelievably short sighted and counterproductive. the right wing israeli government is working very hard to create a horrible standoff that will hurt everybody and help no one.  how can israel hope to defend itself from those who would love to see it destroyed when so many of its own politicians are so addicted to the pursuit of political apocalypse? 

Here's some info about 6 of the released prisoners.

For me, its very hard to be happy about these guys being free, and even harder to see them treated as heroes by Hammas.

O

Yes, however according to Uri Avnery in Tikkun:

"But others [Palestinian prisoners] were sentenced to life for belonging to an “illegal organization” and possessing arms, or for throwing an ineffectual home made bomb at a bus hurting nobody.

Almost all of them were convicted by military courts. As has been said, military courts have the same relation to real courts as military music does to real music."

http://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/uri-avnery-on-gilad-shalit-the-real-story

Palestinian attacks should also be put in historical context, including  the Irgun's bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946 which resulted in 91 deaths and 46 injuries of people of various nationalities. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

Another historical context is that of the French WWII resistance that conducted many insurgent/asymetric/terrorist (choose your favorite obfuscating term) actions against invaders of their land.  There were political assasinations of collaborators, acts agains the German military and Vichy Quislings.  Another historical parallel is the Spanish republicans fighting against Franco who was not opposed by Stalin nor the British or US.  One man's terrorist/criminal is another's freedom fighter!

It is cynically and consciously disingenuous for some to state that Hamas wants to drive Israel into the sea and is hell bent on the total destruction of (Jewish) Israel and that Palestinians teach their children to hate and kill Israeli Jews while Israel might have some wackos (not representative of the majority!?) who are dealt with by the law.  Virtually all Israelis must serve in the IDF and rest assured they are also indoctrinated to hate and dehumanise the 'enemy'.

One only has to look at the Israeli judicial review of the attacks and massacres in Sabra and Shatilla to know how Israeli justice (sic) deals with its own.  Most Palestinian children and their families just want a normal life devoid of the crushing suppression of Israeli laws and military and prisons (including secret ones i.e. torture camps).  To characterise them as all wanting to kill Israeli Jews is simplistic and undisguised racism - nothing less.

Hamas spokespersons have on a number of occasions extended olive branches (ironic as Israel has destroyed so many of their olive orchards!) and spoken of peace with Israel.  Whether peace negotiations with Hamas included will succeed (define your criteria for success) will never be known so long as some characterise Hamas as intransigent and hell bent on driving Israel into the sea and don't even give it a try (despite numerous Hamas initiated and Israeli broken ceasefires).

Can Israel negotiate with Hamas?  Don''t forget that Israel worked with and supported Hamas years ago in order to undermine the attempts of Arafat and co. to negotiate a settlement with rejectionist Israel and its staunch rejectionist supporter, the U.S.!

If one truly wants peace and justice for all human beings then one needs to work for it and give up the racist bias and disingenuous arguments and stop pretending to be only victims and constantly blaming others rather than looking in the mirror.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-delegates-join-seinfeld-star-for-tour-of-both-sides-of-israel-1.392547

"Renowned Seinfeld actor Jason Alexander arrived in Israel earlier this week, with the media questioning the sincerity of his efforts to bring “serenity now” to Israel and the conflict. But the OneVoice Delegation Tour - an eclectic group of business professionals and philanthropists from the U.S. and Europe - strives to be more than yet another celebrity tour for a trendy cause.

The delegates arrived on Sunday for a weeklong trip geared toward providing participants with a broader, more informed understanding of both the Israeli and Palestinian narratives of the conflict, while fostering a deeper commitment to a two-state solution.

“As an American Jew, you feel like it is your job to advocate for the state of Israel,” Josh Bernstein, president of Bernstein Management and director of the Jewish Federation of Greater Washington and the United Jewish Endowment Fund told Haaretz.

“But Israel has grown from a state that is fighting for its existence to a democracy, and unfortunately, it doesn’t always uphold the values it was built upon. For American Jews, this has become awkward – this is not the Israel we love.”

Many of the delegates shared Bernstein’s sentiments, expressing a love and commitment to the state of Israel, but difficulty reconciling their Jewish values and vision for a democratic country with the current reality of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict...."

Serenity now...

Interesting you mention Alexander as he is a member of the SHIT list!  Organised alphabetically for ease of use.

http://www.masada2000.org/shit-list.html

http://www.masada2000.org/Costanza-Peace-Initiative.html