You guys believe anything you read. Regardless of who wrote or any exisitence of any kind kind of factual underpinnings.

Who cares about facts and bibiliographies?

Who cares if you have no idea what Koch Industries does?

Who cares about reality?

Blah Blah Blah there's massive amounts of evidence available for you to read about the Kochs and how speculators are raising gasoline prices.

I am not responsible for your ignorance, dipshit. 

Really?

Where is it?

This all sounds like the usual communist propaganda to me.

I know you cannot prove what you claim. Not because you're an idiot. But because you don't have any facts.

"Communist" propaganda from that bastion of socialist news:  Bloomberg.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-02/koch-brothers-flout-law-getting-richer-with-secret-iran-sales.html

Including this point:

"Two days before Christmas 1999, the jury delivered the verdict: Koch Industries had made 24,587 false claims in buying oil, underpaying the U.S. government for royalties on Native American land from 1985 to 1989. Koch paid the U.S. $25 million to settle the case in 2001."

Attempting to tar people as "communist" is sooooooo 1940s/50s...

Is that all you have? 25 million in fines?

Koch is the 2nd largest private company in the USA. They have been in business for 50 years... and that's the best you have?

The cities of New York and Chicago have paid out larger settlements for civil rights violations.

If you talk like a communist then I will deduce that you probably are a some sort of Marxist. It's just logic.

What I did not do is call him or you a "dipshit." 

Noticably you had no comment on that matter. Most liklely because you condone that sort of rhetoric.

Now all that being said.. The article was very informative and illustrated the fact that a handful of Koch's employees had acted very irresponsibly.Your quote was the result of their own internal audit of a busness that the management has suspected was violating company protocol.

Now what was not there was any implication that David or Charles Koch had directed those employees to violate the laws and regulations.

But what sticks out is not 25 million but closer to a half a billion in fines and settlements over 50 years. That's a still a pretty well run company considering the overall numbers.

What is not there is any proof or evidence of price fixing or any proof of dedicating 100 million toward defeating the Presients re-election campaign.  The Obama campaign put out an email several months ago making the claim that the Kochs were personally dedicating 200 million to fight Obama. This was debunked by CNN and all of the other news outlets. The claim was totally flase.

So I think you should judge Koch Industries in it's totality. They have done trillions in business and had to pay only 400-500 million in punitive fines and damages over 50+ years.That's a far better average than most countries or publicly held corporations.  We as citizens generally pay more of a percentage of our income in traffic and parking tickets.

I don't work for Koch. But I know a lynching when I see one. American companies are generally good companies. They generally play by the rules. And often times when they do get in trouble, it's their foreign subsidiaries that are culpable.

I am free market guy. Heck I for freedom in general. I am an American. That's what being an American is all about. Without the USA, much of the world would still be controlled by mass murdering Marxists and Fascists. The UN woukd not exist. And Geneva would be just a nice place for rich people to live and nothing more.

1) Oddly enough, you seem to have missed the paragraphs in the same article that note the following, notably that retaliatory action was taken against the employee who uncovered the abuse:

"Egorova-Farines wasn’t rewarded for bringing the illicit payments to the company’s attention. Her superiors removed her from the inquiry in August 2008 and fired her in June 2009, calling her incompetent, even after Koch’s investigators substantiated her findings. She sued Koch-Glitsch in France for wrongful termination."

2) You claim to be for "freedom." Well, seems that the Koch brothers don't share your views.

"Fred was an early adviser to the founder of the anti- communist John Birch Society, which fought against the civil rights movement and the United Nations. Charles and David have supported the Tea Party, a loosely organized group that aims to shrink the size of government and cut federal spending.

These are long-standing tenets for the Kochs. In 1980, David Koch ran for vice president on the Libertarian ticket, pledging to abolish Social Security, the Federal Reserve System, welfare, minimum wage laws and federal agencies -- including the Department of Energy, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Central Intelligence Agency.

What many people don’t know is how the Kochs’ anti- regulation political ideology has influenced the way they conduct business.

A Bloomberg Markets investigation has found that Koch Industries -- in addition to being involved in improper payments to win business in Africa, India and the Middle East -- has sold millions of dollars of petrochemical equipment to Iran, a country the U.S. identifies as a sponsor of global terrorism."

3) As to punitive fines and damages, your selective reading also missed this fact in the same article.

" In 1999, a Texas jury imposed a $296 million verdict on a Koch pipeline unit -- the largest compensatory damages judgment in a wrongful death case against a corporation in U.S. history. The jury found that the company’s negligence had led to a butane pipeline rupture that fueled an explosion that killed two teenagers."

Good luck with your "logic." Many citizens of the United States of America would disagree with your contention that "freedom" is what "being an American is all about."  This is an extremely simplistic statement about a nation and a people with a complex and rich history.

There is no freedom without justice.

There is also a report to administrator button, if you feel that someone has insulted you.  Feel 'free' to use it.

@roman if you just read the article, you'll see the facts you claim aren't there.

Using third grade insults (calling people Communist or Marxist) only paints you in a bad light. And for the record, your logic leaves a lot to be desired.

You're seriously trying to compare $400-500 million in fines to parking/speeding tickets? You have *got* to be kidding me.

See also in that same Bloomberg article:

"Internal company documents show that the company made those sales through foreign subsidiaries, thwarting a U.S. trade ban. Koch Industries units have also rigged prices with competitors, lied to regulators and repeatedly run afoul of environmental regulations, resulting in five criminal convictions since 1999 in the U.S. and Canada.

From 1999 through 2003, Koch Industries was assessed more than $400 million in fines, penalties and judgments. In December 1999, a civil jury found that Koch Industries had taken oil it didn’t pay for from federal land by mismeasuring the amount of crude it was extracting. Koch paid a $25 million settlement to the U.S.

Phil Dubose, a Koch employee who testified against the company said he and his colleagues were shown by their managers how to steal and cheat -- using techniques they called the Koch Method.

American companies are generally good companies. They generally play by the rules. And often times when they do get in trouble, it's their foreign subsidiaries that are culpable.

With all due respect Roman, if I were American, I wouldn't make such a generalizing statement in the start and then, towards the end of my own point, trip over myself & tumble. If foreign subsidaries are culpable often times, we may have a 'pattern'?

A few more facts - Communism was neither 'invented', 'copyrighted' nor 'patented' by Marx. Nor does everyone that makes a point for for human justice & by default, against 'free market' & 'over-consumption' - subscribe to Marxism. Can people not have their own BELIEFS? So calling those that do not share your 'free market' beliefs Commies is way beyond generalizing. 

Without the USA? Why don't we think of a world without the moon or the sun? I'd love to hear more...imagining a real world without 'reality' is precisely how we discuss facts in here.

Just one example of a US company -- Halliburton -- record-breaking Foreign Corrupt Practices Settlement....

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2009/01/26/halliburton-breaks-fcpa-settlement-record-for-us-companies/

Oooooh, those 'marxists' at the Wall Street Journal!!!

For more examples of US companies breaking the law, including the recent Walmart Mexico scandal, see this link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/22/business/at-wal-mart-in-mexico-a-bribe-inquiry-silenced.html?_r=2

"In a confidential report to his superiors, Wal-Mart’s lead investigator, a former F.B.I. special agent, summed up their initial findings this way: “There is reasonable suspicion to believe that Mexican and USA laws have been violated.”

The lead investigator recommended that Wal-Mart expand the investigation.

Instead, an examination by The New York Times found, Wal-Mart’s leaders shut it down.

Neither American nor Mexican law enforcement officials were notified. None of Wal-Mart de Mexico’s leaders were disciplined. Indeed, its chief executive, Eduardo Castro-Wright, identified by the former executive as the driving force behind years of bribery, was promoted to vice chairman of Wal-Mart in 2008. Until this article, the allegations and Wal-Mart’s investigation had never been publicly disclosed.

But The Times’s examination uncovered a prolonged struggle at the highest levels of Wal-Mart, a struggle that pitted the company’s much publicized commitment to the highest moral and ethical standards against its relentless pursuit of growth."

Translator,

I could care less if they fired someone. In my mind there are rarely "wrongful terminations." And I say that because in a "free society" a business owner(s) can make the decision to sack anyone they want, at any time, for any reason or no reason at all. They had that lady on for over a year after she uncovered the problems in France and they promoted her and reassigned her to other business units post de fact as well. And just because someone did one part of their job correctly, that does not mean that they performed in the other parts of their job effectively. Let me make this clear. Anyone can sue anyone with or without merit. Just because a suit was brought it does not automatically mean there was wrong doing. As was the case with Egorova-Farines. She lost her suit because the court did not believe she brought a credible case in France no less. What is interesting to be is that you sought to convict someone of an offense that they were found not culpable of by a court of law. That says volumes in itself.

And I did not miss the 296 million dollar settlement. I included that my second synopsis. It was an accident and Koch Industries made good on a scale that no other company has ever done before them. And it was a jury that gave that settlement. It was not based on the value of the loss but instead a reaction triggered by outrage and emotions. That's the American justice system. However that being said if the USA was truly a free market economy like it was supposed to be, then 296 million might have been the correct judgement because it would signal the market to act responsibly.

OMG! What a scandal! Fred Koch thought the UN and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 were scams! The UN, a body of undeserving, pious, unelected bureaucrats hell bent on world domination and their own self preservation via majority funding from the US taxpayers?  How could Fred ever think such a thing?..... Unfortunately he was arguably correct in some areas. The flaw of the Civil Rights Act is that it gave the government control over private property. It's a huge flaw because it's an afront to the idea of freedom. The UN has a long history of ineffectveness and corruption. The waste of financial resources by the UN is incredible and mind boggling. The leadership travels  and finances themselves like royalty. They are a non-profit that offices in palacial buildings at the expense of hard working taxpayers. I have watched personally as diplomats from almost every country engaged in petty thievery at the UN in New York City. Then we have Agenda 21 and United Nations Small Arms Treaty. Both of which are an afront to basic human rights. The right to free movement and the right to defend your person and family are the most essential human rights. Historically when a people are disarmed then millions will die. Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tong, Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin just to name a few were all huge proponents of gun control and disarming their citizens. Not for the safety of those citizens. History tells their story.

Arun accused me of ignoring reality for posing a hypothetical theory. I know a lot of people don't like the USA. We'll always have Anti-Americans. We have tons of them in the US right now. Some people actually want to take the greatest human experiment in personal liberty and freedom, the most prosperous  Constitutional Repeublic the world has ever seen and turn the USA into some sort of Democracy. And I believe what they really want is a Socialized Democracy like many in Europe. We will never have a shortage of people hating the USA.

Arun feel free to repackage Marxism in anyway you want. It's just easier for me to call it by the name that I know it as. We ddi have to study it in school. Marxism is a cautionary tale. So let me ask you this. What right do you have to decide what is "over consumption?" To decide that someone else has too much money? To decide that someone else has too much freedom? Do you know the difference between equal opportunity and equalizing outcomes? At some point Arun you're going to realize that some people don't want to work hard. Some people are just plain lazy. Some people have little or no ambition. Some people are scam artists. Some people believe that because they have been born that they are entitled to fruits of another persons labor. Lets talk about these people. There are certainly many more of them then there are of the Koch brother types. And their negative impact is exponentially greater than all of the corporations of the world put together and multiplied over and over.

Yo Zonker. Ask yourself this question. What percentage of your total income have you paid in your life as punitive fees or fines? Please include parking tickets, any fines, late fees, assessments for damages, court findings, traffic tickets... everything. I did my own math for myself and I concluded that by ratio I am no better than the Koch Brotheres. I got fined last month $500 for filing an application for an annual fire inspection just one day late. And another $100 for not renewing by dog license even though I don't actually live there anymore. But I had to pay it because I maintain a mailing address in the USA. That's life. Am I a rotten person? No I am not. In fact I am a very generous human being. So are the Koch brothers. In fact they are some of the largest philanthropic donors in the USA and on the planet. Top 100 out of 6.5 billion people. They help thousands of the less fortunate every single day directly and on a personal level. That's better than what I do. Better than most of us. Because it's way too easy to use other peoples money to help the less fortunate.  Just like it's way too easy to send someone elses sons or duaghters to fight and die in a war for "justice." It's another thing to throw your own skin in the game.

My point is that we should all consider perspective. Not just our own.

What would you do if you owned their company? Would you destroy yourself? Would you seek to lose money rather than profit? How would you improve things and still make payroll and profit?

Oil and gas is a very dirty business. And I give Koch Industries a "B-" for the efforts. It's not  like they had a Chernobyl or Bopal sort of thing going on. And where they did wrong, they paid for the most part.

I am waiting very axiously for the day when we have a cheap, cleaner replacement for fossil fuels. 8 CHF for a gallon of Diesel is nuts. That might be the only thing we agree on.

I will conclude by saying that all of you are way too smart for me. So I concede victory to the four of you.

Living and operating a business in the United States of America means that there can indeed be "wrongful terminations" as based upon laws and regulations of the land. Many of these laws and regulations were passed after gross violations of health and safety of workers as well as unfair and discriminatory treatment.

Of course, many US citizens understand that there some of our fellow Americans still believe that people should be able to discriminate in public accomodations, rental and purchase of property and even voting rights.  It took a long time to get rid of slavery.  It took over another 100 years to pass federal legislation to ensure voting rights for all US cititzens as well as other anti-discrimination measures.

There are many laudable US corporations who manage to do business without repeated violations of environmental regulations including release of toxic chemicals, millions of gallons of crude oil spilled and so on.  Koch Industries is not one of them. 

http://sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Koch_Industries#cite_note-8

Translator,

You clearly believe that you're the smartest person in the world. So I am not going to argue that point with you.

SourceWatch? Really? Why don't you just send me data from cpusa.org or dnc.org is that's your best reference point.

So you're a genius. What do you think would happen if the you got your wish? If Koch Industries just closed up shop tomorrow? After they layoff their 100,000+ employees and shut down their operations. What happens next? Does gas get cheaper? Does the world rejoice because 30% of the worlds refineries go offline?

What if you got your other wish and Walmart closed up and laid off their 1.3 million employees and closed their doors forever? Is that a win for genius liberals like yourself? Would prices on basic goods go down?

You're way too smart for me. I can't keep up with lofty thinking that companies should be perfect and that everyone they employ should also be perfect. Because I know that you have never made any kind of mistake in your professional or personal life.

If only I could be more like you. If only I could be perfect.

Too bad that I am human.

@roman Translator has provided tomes of very useful, thoughtful and well-reasoned information on glocals for years. I have yet to hear the same from you, even in small doses.

I had my suspicions, but you confirmed them above: you are conservative and/or Republican. In 2012. Yikes! What a scary combination.

What is your problem with SourceWatch? Please be specific.

Translator's wish is not that any company or person be perfect, but, that they strive for perfection. Making trillions of dollars does not a great company make. It merely means they are profitable. Big distinction. And Koch (the company and  especially the brothers) have demonstrated very radical, anti-american, anti-democratic and pretty anti-everything for a long time, and never more clearly than during the present election campaign. It's because of people like them and, sadly, you that I find myself having to apologize to people I meet for the things that happen in the US.

Republicans ran on Jobs, Jobs, Jobs in 2010. They still use that sound bite whenever they get the chance. But, they have yet to even put forward a single bill that has anything to do with job creation. OTH, they have attacked unions, women's right, abortion, immigration, and even didn't bother to discuss jobs legislation that was put before them.

Republicans/conservatives in the US are becoming, if not have become, a farce - grown ups in suits and ties discussing non-important issues like middle school students discussing whether someone likes them or not. Pitiful, really.

And, Roman, only because you have written so copiously do I think it's important to mention it, but it's very difficult to read some of your posts due to grammar and spelling mistakes. I really want to read and understand what you have to say, but sometimes it's a challenge.

Roman: Can you please point out where I've judged anyone for over-consumption or too much money?

1) People, their thoughts & actions do not come in 'packages' from assembly lines.
2) Whatever you may have studied about Socialism, Marxism & Communism, now may be a good time to revisit it before jumping to conclusions on who fits where.
3) You're being 'Anti-anti-American' when there're really no anti-Americans in here.
4) This thread is about Koch brothers. If you want to talk about scam artists, folks that depend on social welfare & have no interest in productive work; we sure can talk about them. Please start a new thread.
5) If you use a hypothesis that is inapplicable to ANY argument, you don't expect us to just stand there & say nothing...do you?  
6) This thread, the site, the internet, nor this world is about who's smarter than who. It's about an exchange of opinions, ideas, thoughts, facts & data. Guess we are all learning from each other...or aren't we?

Take it easy, enjoy your weekend! Here's a nice video.  

Anyone who studied logic and rhetoric will tell you that your argumentation is seriously flawed.  

The use of insults to attack an argument is fallacious.

You use the "straw man" fallacy to say that I argue that Koch Industries and WalMart should be shut down.  I never made any such argument.  And even if that were the case, there is nothing to prevent more ethical companies taking the place of either enterprise.  

Your all or nothing belief in reference to perfection is also referred to as Nirvana fallacy. According to you, any criticism of a single or multiple corporation means I demand a perfect solution.  In fact, I stated clearly that there are many ethical companies.

Nothing wrong with being educated.  After all, not too long ago in the United States of America, it was illegal to teach my ancestors to read.  They were also considered property and not treated as humans.  

FACTS: For the couple people on here who need a reality check and a slap in the face:

Koch Industries is, and has been for a very long time, one of the worst companies in all America. It has used its power and connections to drive up oil prices. There is plenty of evidence of this, and in fact, they even admitted to it. 

Worst possible grade for environmental practices: Not fixing leaking pipelines, illegal dumping and disposing of toxic benzene in streams, failing to clean up sites, failing to install pollution control equipment, breach of environmental regulation to name just a few. 

Ethics issues: Koch Industries sold petroleum to the Nazis during WW2, as well as to the Soviet Union, despite the embargo. More recently, the Kochs bought oil in, and invested in Iran, despite the current embargo (as recently as 2007), as well as a number of other unstable, repressive regimes.

A Bloomberg Markets investigation has found that Koch Industries -- in addition to being involved in improper payments to win business in Africa, India and the Middle East -- has sold millions of dollars of petrochemical equipment to Iran, a country the U.S. identifies as a sponsor of global terrorism...

The company's products helped build a methanol plant for Zagros Petrochemical Co., a unit of Iran's state-owned National Iranian Petrochemical Co., the documents show. The facility, in the coastal city of Bandar Assaluyeh, is now the largest methanol plant in the world, according to IHS Inc., an Englewood, Colorado-based provider of chemicals, energy and economic data.

Bloomberg Markets Magazine wrote a story which does not only focus on several new revelations, but also provides a comprehensive overview about scandals of Koch Industries which happened during the last decades. The story also explicitly puts the well known political activities of the Koch Brothers in context with their highly questionable behaviour in business.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-02/koch-brothers-flout-law-getting-richer-with-secret-iran-sales.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/koch-industries-report-reveals-secret-sins/story?id=14676652

Bloomberg Markets Magazine reveals in this article for example that:

- Koch Industries used the European offices of their subsidiary Koch-Glitsch to sell millions of dollars of petrochemical equipment to Iran in an apparent violation of the US-Iran trade embargo, as recently as 2007

-Koch Industries paid bribes in six countries from 2002 to 2008 to win business in Africa, India and the Middle East, comparable to similar behavior of German technology giant Siemens (Siemens subsequently had to pay a $ 1.6 billion fine!)

- Koch Industries sacked a compliance officer in France in June 2009 who discovered the illegal bribes at Koch Industries subsidiary Koch-Glitsch.

- Bloomberg Markets reveals that former employees of Koch Industries harshly criticize the company for their internal practices and ethics.

- The story also covers in great detail over several pages earlier violations of Koch Industries: The company in the past "rigged prices with competitors, lied to regulators and repeatedly run afoul of environmental regulations, resulting in five criminal convictions since 1999 in the U.S. and Canada."

In 2008, Koch called attention to itself for “contango” oil market manipulation. A commodity market is said to be in contango when future prices are expected to rise, that is, when demand is expected to outstrip supply. Big banks and companies like Koch employ a contango strategy by buying up oil and storing it in massive containers both on land and offshore to lock in the oil for sale later at a set price. In December of 2008, Koch leased “four supertankers to hold oil in the U.S. Gulf Coast to take advantage of rising prices in the months ahead.” Writing about Koch’s contango efforts to artificially drive down supply, Fortune magazine writer Jon Birger noted they could be raising “gasoline prices by anywhere from 20 to 40 cents a gallon” at the time. Speaking with the Business Times, Koch executive David Chang even boasted that falling crude prices in 2008 provided an opportunity remove oil from the market for future delivery:

The drop in crude oil prices from more than US$145 per barrel in July 2008 to less than US$35 per barrel in December 2008 has presented opportunities for companies such as ours. In the physical business, purchases of crude oil from producers and storing offshore in tankers allow us to benefit from the contango market where crude prices are higher for future delivery than for prompt delivery.

In recent weeks, gas prices around the country have surged to levels unseen since the 2008 oil spike. However, market fundamentals are not driving the nearly $4.00/gallon gas prices. In fact, under the Obama administration, oil production is at record highs and there is adequate global supply of crude. As Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) commissioner Bart Chilton has explained, rampant oil speculation, which is at its highest level on record right now, is to blame for current prices.

"This all sounds like the usual communist propaganda to me."

You just proved my point, you really are dumb. 

These accusations of "name calling" are baseless. The only name calling that has occurred has been from the Nicolas.

Sarcastic innuendo I am guilty of... sure.

Furthermore, the United States of America is a Constitutional REPUBLIC! It's not a democracy. The word "democracy" means 'Mob Rule' and it does not appear anywhere in the USA's Declaration of Independence or the US Constitution. And for good reason. Anyone who believes the US is a democracy is engaged in wishful thinking at best. Anti-Americanism at worst.

Just for record Translator. I am a minority too. But I refuse to have a victim mentality. And I refuse to play the race card to bolster any arguments or to gain sympathy. But I do acknowledge the facts in your statements and the flaws in the comprimise that was the original US Constitution with regard to those facts. Just as I acknowledge some of the flaws in some of the subsequent Amendments. Specifically the 16th and the 17th.

Koch sold products to Iran through a foreign subsidiary... So what. All the big oil companies have done that. Halliburton (my least favorite company on the planet) moved to Dubai so it could freely trade with Iran instead of having to go through a co-owned foreign subsidiary. Which by the way is totally legal. It's just bad paparazzi.

So the four of you are hating on Koch and other American Corporations that may spotty ethical records. Okay. That's fine. But my "all or nothing" push was meant to illustrate the point that bitching about small potatos in the grand scheme of things demonstrates an agenda of sorts. And from where I am standing it appears to be an Anti-American, Anti-Capitalist agenda. Am I wrong? Are you all really Pro-Capitalism, Pro-Americans? I doubt anyone here is Pro-Corruption. But I am hearing crickets with regard to companies like Apple and Nestle. Both of which have had recent allegations of unethical practices.

There really is only two types of market philosphies in this world. There is Capitalism and there is Marxism. Some attempts to be both have ended in failure as is the case with Greece for example.  A soon to be cautionary tale could be the United States if it does not abandon the warfare/welfare state ideology.

There are very few successes. I like Switzerland a lot. There is an efficient and effective social safety net for the needy. There is no minimum wage. Employment is pretty much at will with fair protections for employees. And everyone for the most part carries their own weight and provides for their own health care and security. The Swiss are better Capitalist than the USA in some ways.

With regard to rampant oil speculations are concerned. There is no way of knowing whether or not Koch is moving the market. They are a private company and the only people that know if they went long on a futures contract are their brokers. And it would be illegal for them to divulge that information. Has it ever occurred to anyone that additional taxes, tariffs and rising costs associated with compliance of new and old regulations might be seriously significant factors in the price spike in fuel? This assumption that one company has the power to spike fuel prices on a global scale seems a bit far fetched to me. Now we're talking about a conspiracy theory that every oil refiner in the world is acting in colusion to bilk everyone on the planet and to make the POTUS look bad during a re-election campaign. I sincerely doubt that's the case here.

Now to get away from the negative and suggest a solution. Perhaps the five of us should establish a fuel purchasing club where we can negotiate our own petrol/diesel futures prices for the fuel that we intend to buy?

Here is another solution. If you don't like Koch and truly believe that they are manipulating the oil markets and responsible for high fuel prices. Then stop using oil/gas/diesel/jet-A/benzene. Ride your bike. Eat organic. Wear natural fibers. Stop buying items with plastic in them like bottled water, computers and I-Phones. You would probably be much happier.

The fact of the matter is that people make mistakes. Koch and Walmart certainly have made HUGE MISTAKES when they hired the wrong people. Those people acted irresponsibly and those companies bore the brunt of those poor decsions. They paid their fines and cleaned house when they needed to. I did especially enjoy the story of the guy at Walmart Mexico that committed bribary to rat himself out for breaking the law. But only after he quit because he felt "unappreciated" for his copius bribary efforts.

Why does your point repeatedly steer to US Constitutional Republic vs Democracy? Now it clearly strikes a labelled, political undertone, with a top-down approach to humanity, life, the universe and all beings from sixth-grade doctrine.

From where I stand, I see you accusing every Democrat of being anti-American, reducing their thoughts & ideas to alien-like philosophy. That is a war-like situation that you would like to believe, while nothing of that sort is really out here, certainly not on this thread.

For the record, this thread is not about - all that is wrong with the US, the pursuit of happiness, Koch Industries, Walmart, Capitalism & Republicans...even McDo has painted themselves dark-green! People on this thread do not HATE the Kochs, certainly not as much as you think. 

I'll buy you a beer, if & when it's legal for you to have one. 

Arun

This thread started out as a idea or statement that Nicolas was espousing. Half of his assertion was already debunked before he even posted his thread. The Koch's have not pledged 100 million or 200 million to fight the POTUS' re-election campaign. Even MSNBC reported this as false because it was the subject of a recent news story about a fundraising email put out by OFA. It's a fact.

And the Bloomberg article represents everything that Koch Industries has ever done. Still not enough proof to positively or even remotely support Nicolas' assertions that the Koch Industries was manipulating the oil markets or is solely resposnible for the spike in fuel prices around the globe. I think you said it best once. So I am going to paraphrase.  Copius writing does not make for a good substitute for factual content. So if we were religiously devoted to original intent of this thread. Why are you only critical of me? Personally I think the natural flow of the discussion was leading to the idea of whether or not a free market sould exist and subsequently the role of governments in the marketplace. And that leads us to Capitalism vs. Marxism. And you all know that I am quasi-free market capitalist and an advocate for private property rights and individual liberty. I am not ashamed of it.

just for the record, I am a bottom up guy. I am also a Classical Liberal, an Independent American and an egalitiarian. Not a Republican or Democrat.  Sorry man, but you're dead wrong. If I was a Keynesian you would be right but I support sound money, value backed currencies and free markets. Think Austrian Economics and you'll get it.

The beauty of the US and her Constitution is that it provided for the exchange of free ideas. While the USA initially rejected the idea of Democracy and Marxism and even the progressive tax system for over 125 years. It's clear today that there are many in the US that would like to see more Democracy, more Socialization and a more aggressive progressive tax system.  It's not some "alien like philosophy." But it is counter to some of the original intent of protecting private property rights, freedom, liberty and prosperity that USA was founded on. That's a fact.

As far as the sixth grade is concerned. I am guilty of being an old school patriotic American. I love my country, would happily fight for my country and I would never apologize for being an American or for what my country has done. That's not to say that I am not critical sometimes. Actually I am very critical and have been for a long time with every administration that I can remember. But I don't lick boots and I don't kiss ass because I want to make friends with people that don't agree with USA's policies. So no apologies from me for the USA. I wouldn't even dream of it.

I do appreciate the offer for the beer. Even though I don't drink beer I would stomach it to be polite if that's what you want. However I am having a party in July. You're invited and I'll would be happy to have a beer, champagne, wine, martini or whatever with you then.  It's a Red, White and Blue Party. I'll be wearing some sort of Pro-American get up. Actually 31 countries all have red, white and blue in their national flags. More than any other color scheme. The Brits and the Dutchies won all the prizes at last years party for the best outfits.

Thank you for the video. Here's one for you.

Roman: Can you bring some links to prove all that you're saying? Sure I can Google, but when I bring any disputable facts in here or refute that of others, I'll provide data to support it. I haven't brought any until now, so I'm as guilty of hijacking this thread as you are. Unless you provide clickable (or double-clickable) solutions that ain't blogspot theories by couch potatoes. 

The video's funny...they've gone to great lengths to make their opinions idiot-proof (dollars to seconds comparision...they sure belong to the Einstein breed), but I wish for their own benefit, they'd done that before making it, with the underlying data...I'll leave the details to its own thread, if it ever comes up.

1) 125 years ago, there was no internet. The level of transparency we have at a global scale today was unfathomable even 20 years ago. W're talking about Koch brothers who have also been accused of supporting the Tea party jing-bang. Of course, it's all refutable, but my classical-liberal side encourages tea consumption, especially of the Assam & Darjeeling varieties.
2) I never called you a Republican nor a Democrat. I provided you my insight on the basis of what I read on your posts and you are dead right that I'm dead wrong, for I don't know you. I made an assumption based on available information and it was absolutely incorrect. 
3) Why am I picking on you? Let's just say - I had a feeling you'd invite me to a nice party! Now that you have...beware I'll take you up on it. 
4) As for Nicolas, if you come into his quartier with R-O-M-A as part of your name, you may be begging for it. Nic seems like a great guy...but I've reported his posts to one of the moderators for the names he's called you. 

Brother... We are all total hypocrites. We just have different agendas.

SmackDown Rebuttle from Koch Industries. In there own words.

Here's the debunkage on the alleged financial committment the Koch's are being accused of. 

http://www.kochfacts.com/kf/obamaletter/

Here's the other on the Bloomberg article: 

http://www.kochfacts.com/kf/koch-general-counsel-mark-holden-responds-to-bloomberg-markets-magazine/

And on the Tea Party:

http://www.kochfacts.com/kf/the-tea-party/

Absolutely, we are all hypocrites.  Kochfacts? Is that your only source of information...where they mount their own defense & clearly accept (by quoting a previous Bloomberg article themselves) on how thro' subsidaries, comfortably exploited gaping legal loopholes?

Indirect involvement means zero involvement? That's their chronic excuse & you are buying it; while they do not even talk about how their joint fortunes have inflated by over 30 billion in less than a decade. Most of it during the Socialist-Marxman-American-freedom-destroying-devil's rule...in the last three years. 

With all due respect, I'd have called the site Koch-headfacts.

Arun,

Come on man. The attached documents are the ammunition. To hear from the agitators in their own words.To see in black and white the variances from the documents and the article.

So what's this witch hunt really about?

Why do you care if someone makes good profits?

It's not like Koch Industries is asking for a taxpayer sponsored bailout package, "Stimulius" money, free college, free health care or any other welfare package or sugar baby status. So what's your deal?

Do you really think that Americans should just be silent and idle while people attack their countrymen? Is that what you would do? Am I just not cool?

It's too bad you're not an American. Because I think you're cool. But  unfortunately for you, in the event that there was a serious survival scenario where you, me and Translator were all starving to death with nothing to eat but one bottle of Sweet Baby Rays BBQ Sauce. Regardless of any differences of opinion that I may have had with Translator previously, I would certainly kill you and process your body into human barbeque deliciousness so that me and my countrywoman would survive.

@Zonker: quote:"... you are conservative and/or Republican. In 2012. Yikes!.."

I dont think Romes is a traditionalist neocon (=neocomminst)  or a Rhino ("republican in name only" like Newt) that would be more up you ally with regards to norm and values (all powerfull state)..

I mean ..copying the idiot notion that all humans are sovereign individual...thats so late 18th century retro,.., no place for that in 2012.

@Zonker:"...Using third grade insults (calling people Communist or Marxist) only paints you in a bad light. .."

Calling someone who (wants to) steal "a  thief"  is first and foremost a factual statement, not an insult.

@Translator:"..Of course, many US citizens understand that there some of our fellow Americans still believe that people should be able to discriminate in public accomodations,"

The private bus companies (those mean selferving greedy capitalist!!) in the South fought tooth and nail in court to stop the Democratic's party (Jim Crow) laws of being implemented.. But what can you do against a party who has faught against abolishment of slavery and empancipation for the last 400 years.? Or like to keep minorities depended/controlled through a system called "the welfare state".

Translator:"...  It took a long time to get rid of slavery..."

UK abolishes slavery in 1833 under PM Earl Gray  and sends warships to Africa to stop the muslims (felanis, Housa's) and Ghanese ,(Ashanti)  from continueing the Western trade, (wich started 900 years before any Westerner was took part in yhis).

Of course Earl Gray was one of those crazy "wiggers" who believes in individual sovernty.

And then there was Abraham Lincoln..the South seceded before he even became president, because they very well know what was going to happen.

Dunno about "communist" but yes, is a load of BS. The energy market is more complicated than most people realise. and another thing that most people don't realise is how much the gas prices are affected by western governments trough taxes, more than anything else.

All very interesting, and im glad to see people debating these kind of subjects.  Unfortunately this should not even be a subject of discussion. We should all be talking about ''free energy''

Unfortunately the powers that be (bankers/oil companies) have suppressed all research and advancement of the technology.

Well unfrotunately that is not quite the case: I have worked extensivley in th eoil business and I tell you: no one is suppressing investment, more than anything theyare not interested since it is not profitable in the short term, and that is the real issue here: government should do more for basic reasearch, otherwise we are screwed. Only State funded research can take a sufficient long point of view to do the basic reasearch that is needed beffore alternative energy (and I do not consider shale gas as alternative!!) will ecome commercially viable hence widespread....

There is a problem in the West where fewer and fewer people are taking the hard sciences,...just look at the number of Phd's in these areas, that graduate ,the majority of them are immigrants ...not Western citizens,.., so if the number of trained hard beta ppl drops below some critical number (and that number has been falling for years) it is easier to sell crap like "free energy" to the laymen public mixed in with some lefto-pinko- conspiracy theories....  It also feeds the ego, as these layman can all of a sudden delude themselves as being "on par" with the knowledge it takes YEARS of HARD work to attain.

Anyway. government should take their hands off research entirely,..., the facts of history are clear on this.

Quote ''they are not interested since it is not profitable''

This seems to be the root of the problem.  They are not interested because it is not profitable for there wallets.  It is, how ever profitable for the world wide community and the planet that these technologies get proper funding and exposure.

I personally find it very difficult to believe that the energy industry is fully embracing this technology.  They know that once it can be controlled and marketed to the world then all other energy sources will become 2nd choice.

Quote: "....This seems to be the root of the problem.  They are not interested because it is not profitable for there wallets..."--

Not really, the root of the problem is not understanding (layman speak->) that buring 2 gallons of diesel in a tractor to harvest 1 gallon of bio-diesel/corn-methonal/whatever  is actually WASTING more energy and polluting the enviroment (playing devils advocate here) even more.

Ideologie (lefto-pinko-anti-industrial-revolution-lets-go-back-to-the-dark-ages-farming-pol-pot-marxism) has no place in science, just as religion has no place in science.

@ Jabob B,

I am not even going to respond to this.

First of, i have never mentioned, bio fuels, or shale gas or any other of these alternatives.

Please do some research about free energy.  Im not going to pretend to understand it but its all about quantum physics. 

Iagree with you on the PhD problem. On resaearch....not so much.

A lot of good came from basic Research done with government grants/direct involvment....jus ttink of the atomic bomb, or the internet itslef, I hav eeven good examples of basic reasearch done...IN TALY.with governement intervention, for example in chemicals(in the 60's, mainly).

So maybe I dunno where you get your fats from but I beg to differ.

The analisys is spot on, but quite frankly I don't think biodiesel can be considered "renewable" as long as the production is done as it is done now. There is an interesting development in obtaining fuel from algae tough.I dunno tough at which point is. We had ineresting studies at my former employer(one of the big bad guys i the enrgy business...doint the research....) and it could be actually commercially viable.

From my point of view investment shall be concentrated in a few promising field and in energy infrastructure efficiency..,...the real revolution would be stop wasting...as  much as 30% if not more along obsolete grids.Think about that.

"...So maybe I dunno where you get your fats from but I beg to differ..."

Thats not basic reseach,.., government "doesnt invent jack didly".  What was needed was huge investment in weapons grading the Urinaium (2 kg took 4 years with 1940's technology to create and about 2-4 billion us dollars).

Basicly any highschool kid (or third world country) can create a nuclear device, the problem is weapons grading the uranium. That takes the allocation of industry,.., but this is not pure science at all!

What is clear from history is Bell Laboraties,.., where basicly solid state physics was invented,..., or At&T who invested (at that time 800 million USD) of its own money to build the first transistor plant, replace glass-tube technology,

Again the record of history is crystal clear.

@camdenkarl "...Please do some research about free energy..."

I actually do have a physics degree.

@camdenkarl ".. Im not going to pretend to understand.." 

You do pretend, because you attempt to school a professional.

@camdenkarl "...it but its all about quantum physics.."

You dont knowm but then you do know,?

so wich is wich?

the whole political correct movement in the west, its one big ego feeding excersise.  But what else to expect from marxism,..entitlement,..,rancor, sloth...ego..., god forbid these people had to design an airbus 380 for example.

There is no need for a state-bakery, state-farms, minister of distribution (China commie party has this), state- newspaper.

Beaurocrats cannot mandate creativity on command.

Who is talking abou state owned business...YOu tend to put words in my posting that are simply not there.and you are way to ideological, just a negative image of a comunist, don't mind me saying. And between the toal lassez faire and central economies there is a HUGE specter of possibilities. Denying this is in fact, wishful thinking not too different from the wishful thiking proposed by socialist. If this is the level of the discussion, I guess is time lost......While you are at it, You might want to start to think how a government -less society looks like.....and tell me if you like it

Regards

Gennaro

no it is not.

get your fact staright.

Regards

Gennaro

At&T didnt spend 800 million in the 50's to build the first transistor plant?

AT&T didnt invent the first transistor (silicon based)?

Government beaurocrats split the atom (not Heisenberg?)

The Nobel prize is a government funded prize?

A kid cannot build a simple suitcase-nuke device? Some kids even do fusion reactors->http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2007/03/high_school_stu/

You spoke of ideological blindness to certain facts....mmmmm

"...and you are way to ideological, just a negative image of a comunist,..."

There is a positive side to communism?, LOLZ!

"...And between the toal lassez faire and central economies there is a HUGE specter of possibilities..."

Yup, between forced prostitution and free choice i think there might as well be the same gray area...(COUGH!)

"....Denying this is in fact, wishful thinking not too different from the wishful thiking proposed by socialist...."

Socialist are not utopian at all, they are common thieves.

".. You might want to start to think how a government -less society looks like.."

I make a clear distinction between a contractual state and a preditory one. Now you can stereotype all you want, but clear FACT is that beaurocrats dont have "consequential knowledge"...if they had then central planning actually would work, but the beaurocrats dont have it so....tuff luck!

@ Jabob B

So if you have a physic's degree, would you be so kind as to tell us how ''new energy'' works and why scientist's haven''t yet been capable of reproducing this energy in an effective manner?

I dont know if anyone else is following this conversation but here is a site about ''free energy/perpertual motion devices'' http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/  (Again i cannot garentee how factual it is, im sure our expert can tell us though)

quote:"..would you be so kind.."

No!,..,free will sucks dont it?

quote:"...here is a site about ''free energy/perpertual motion devices...."

LOL,...,ok,...,perpertual motion devices?  Dude how did someone like you end up in Switzerland? I am moving out....

quote:"...here is a site about ''free energy/perpertual motion devices...."

Mmmm humer me,.... civil servant,...or works in finance?

Sorry to say but this sounds like a load of BS. there is nothing in nature like perpetual motion, as to my untutored eye that contrast with the basic laws of phisics.

In fact I never said that Bureaucrats have knowledge...I am saying, and is a well proven fat, that State FUNDED reasearch, for example through Universities tha are, in europe at least, mainly public(Germany, to say one....) can and have done a lot on the reasearch on a wide range of fields, from medicine to phisics. Enrico Femri, before joning the Manhattan project, was working in a public university. so did others(Heisenberg, as you well stated).In Italy the chemical secotr, which was very succesful until the 80s, progressed mostly through te research(State funded) made at Politenico of Milan, a public unversity. i oculd go on with examples. And in fact Funding is good when the state allocates the resources and let SCIENTISTS do the work, that is another proven fact.

Regarding the "negative image" I used i intended as a Photographic metaphor meanin the exact, and extreme opposite. I hold no positiv eattitude towards communists. In my book they are the same as nazis no more no ess.

"....Sorry to say but this sounds like a load of BS. there is nothing in nature like perpetual motion, as to my untutored eye that contrast with the basic laws of phisics..."

Dont be a dream killer man,..., let the good man have an excuse to blame capitalism and the big bad wolf..uuuuhg I mean... oil companies.

"....In Italy the chemical secotr, which was very succesful until the 80s, progressed mostly through te research(State funded) made at Politenico of Milan, a public unversity..."

--

80's? thats 30!!! years ago!!  The question you should be asking is not why this is not REPEATED and why such a model is not sustainable.

Mostly successfull efforts are joint ventures between business and state organisations,...,(another good example would be the TU Delft in the Netherlands where multinationals donated entire laboratories at own cost towards these institute and 50% of the funding was from private enterprise).. 

So yes,..., it is interesting to note that when business gets involved all of a sudden a "GOLDEN AGE" of advancement in that perticular field is achieved... but as soon as business moves out... you will see stagnation...., the 80's....thats 30!!!! years ago... living off the past reputation i see.

@ Jacob B

What are you doing here in switzerland?  Apart from running around trying to prove to everyone how clever you are.  In fact your so clever that you cannot have a civilised conversation.

yes please leave switzerland, one less oxygen thief to worry about. 

@ Gennaro S

Open your mind to the possiblties that technology will evolve, and that we will evolve with it.

I am not going to waste any more of my time with this thread.

Have a nice day gentlemen

@Jacob B: government should take their hands off research entirely,..., the facts of history are clear on this.

Makes total sense! Right this moment, I wish no one had funded the initial R&D on this stupid phenomenon called the world-wide-web.

I wouldn't have to read your meandering philosophy on All roads lead to Jacob B's "scientific" opinions. Opinions that are backed by....well, Jacob B's opinions (what did ya expect).

@Arun,

Ok ok, I will start dignifying crap from the likes likes of "big-bad-capitalist-oil-companies-block-advanced-research-in-perpetium-mobile-invention-and-other-free-energy-sources" , I am so arrogant, thanks for correcting me with the nice pics, because well....we all know what happens when liberals run out of arguments.

About the WWW,.,.., yes that was invented in India, oh....wait.....eeh, i mean the USSR,...,oh no wait.....,..Cuba,....oops....no....yes the most capitalist nation on earth (despite massive government disallocation of funds,.., yes they do introduce the odd spinnoff now and then)...

Nice trains....reminds me of the railroad barons in the 19th century who totally WITHOUT government aid build the US transport infrastructure.......oh wait....thats a lie...that was government aswell, no?

@Arun, Thanks for correcting me,.., trains (steamengines, diesel engines in general) were invented with government assitence, and if innovation was  left only to the greedy capitalists industrialists, people like Henry Ford,.., would have blocked this, because they owned stock in "horsewhip-buggy-company-and-co-ltd".

You're welcome. Please let me know when you're done posting replies. It ain't easy but I promise to try & make some sense out of it.

That bit you quoted was sarcasm (I thought I would explicitly mention it, just in case it flew over the head at mach 2)...about posting, yes  liberals love censership and shaming tactics...,(I wonder why that is mmm, probably to keep the "sheaple" in line...)... well i kind of understand, we cant have people walking around thinking they dont need the enlightenment vision provided by state beaurocrats...

So do you have something to add in slamming the Koch Brothers for being the evil capitalists swines that they are? (subject of this thread)

I hope you understand, you aren't making this easy with multiple tangential replies to ONE post that I now have to painfully tie together.

Perhaps my English skills aren't good enough for your excellency. Please can you copy-paste the following when you are done with all your rants predicting all I may say & why?

Arun: I'm done posting. You may now reply.

@runy: I'm done posting. You may now reply.

So if i dont post  above one-liner you wont reply to this thread?

Cool!  (I dont believe this for one single minute, but let's test this!)

Koch Brothers list of evil doings:

1) sacrifice little children and small puppy dogs.

2) block advanced tech-research in perpetual mobile (as was posted above in thread)

3) manipulate governments and markets.

4) just being filthy rich.

5) they drive ferraries and make other people envious by doing so.

Can someone else add to this? (no i didnt mean you runy)

Here you go again, Jacopo. Everytime I start replying, you have something more to add to your previous rants.

How do you expect a sane person to - within the rules of science, reply?

Back home, we have a word for this...Verbal Diarrohea.

With a name like "runny" I would not use the words "diarrohea".

But you promised to stop trolling,..,did you change your mind again?

--

--

Back on topic.

Koch brothers evil doings list (..continued)

6)  Being old while being married to young hot Russian models.

7) Having big yachts in Monaco

8) Having the name Koch ,

Is that your creative best? I got threatened to be eaten earlier on this thread. You've got to do better than that.

No one has suggested these 8 Kochmandments...except...ahem, you. No one called capitalists anything...there's only one person on this thread who's been branding & attacking others personally. Either ways, I'm glad you accused me of shaming you and thus accepted having been ashamed. Le pauvre.

Anyway, I wish you all the best & hope that at some point of time, they incorporate post hoc ergo propter hoc in physics curricula.

Latin in a physics curricula? where did you study physics? Zimbabwe? Ok, that migh explain you siding with the  perpetium mobile crowd....(poster "camdenkarl"). We should invite some flat earthers aswell that might get the liberal party going.

I dont know who is trying to "eat you", is this some kind of inter-cultural translation error? This whole thread is about how big bad oil companies (Koch et al) manipulating global markets (note the thread title!) being fined for environmental misdeads (note the postings)...so its the usual liberal denial and reverse logic when one is being called out on such deflections and shaming tactics.

joining into the "Koch brother bashing bonanza"  seems the best thing to is situations like these.

Go along to get along,.., right?

I prefer not to talk about my education or rather, the lack of it. Btw...is Zimbabwean physics lesser or smaller than yours? Science is science in any language, it's the very beauty of it. As far as I know, the speed of light in a vacuum would remain exactly the same in English and in Bantu languages. And the universal notation for it is from...Latin. So you do know the language to an extent; except...you don't really know that you do.

I'm going to throw some free tips in here, read further at your own risk: When you see orange-coloured text around here, try & click on it. They open links. Links bring external information. Information often opens minds and helps understand what someone is talking about, using another language and/or terminology that is not layman-speak.

If you'd done that on my previous post, you'd have seen where the world-wide-web was invented. You were way far-out in your rambling response, when I'd left it out there. Do the same on the latin word, you'll see what I mean.

This tip is going to be slightly more basic: Reading. One doesn't need a degree for that, for it is taught in kindergarten across the world. If you read the thread, you'll see what I mean by 'threatened to be eaten' (cooked in Sweet Baby Rays BBQ Sauce, no less). 

Stop trying to read more than what is written. I agree, the original article could be percieved as a lot more inflammatory than it should be, but you couldn't accuse us forum members...for WE DIDN'T WRITE IT. Some here think it makes sense to a degree and if you disagree, please tell us why.

Most of the information you're dismissing as 'Koch-bashing' is from data that has been reported in multiple publications. You haven't brought ANY relevant data to be taken truly seriously. I don't see anyone suggesting that the US govt. 'usurps' the Koch chair.

It seems that you feel we're being biased or unjust by quoting reports by media & academia here. If you feel the need to balance it out with some other info on the company in question, feel free to enlighten us on information you think we may have overlooked. Of course, someone may judge you upon that and us being on an open forum, you are absolutely free to defend yourself; in the very same way I'm explaining myself right now.

I'd appreciate if you cease trying to understand what I'm DOING and concentrate on what I'm WRITING. It is all I am DOING and if you think you can decode political leanings & thought patterns from here, you're free to try; with the understanding that you have 50% chances of getting it all wrong.

If you think we're all participating in this forum to sit at our desks and read your opinions on communism, socialism, environmentalism & how sure you are on all we believe just because your disagreeing highness chose to arm yourself with science; you may have to do slightly better. For science is anything but inexplicable. I don't need to tell you that...you're the expert.

That said, phew, you sure have made some brilliant points but the judgmental nonsense surrounding it diminishes all the value you're truly bringing. It sure seems like you're getting there though; for we're moving a lot closer to discussing the topic. Plus your last post reflects a lot more clarity in thought, thank you for that. I can only offer you this one consolidated, hence long-winded response in return for this act of kindness.

I know this tactic, try to burry the thread in a bunch of lies,..,and hope nobody bothers to crosscheck with what was actually written in the thread, but I didnt post any links here on the Koch brothers (lie nr 1 of 23),..., (other then that cute little high school kid doing fusion, but thats to show that even a high school kid with some elbow greese beats the liberal who tinks yabbing about free energy makes him smart or competant.

I did react on some weird guy who got lost looking for the flat earth society who tried to argue with me about (quote) "perpetual mobile devices" and "free energy" and how the big bad oil companies (or capitalism in general) was responsible in striffling this technology..., but accourding to you I am guilty of "arrogance" because i call this "free energy" dribble ,,,a sign of some sort of mental abuse in childhood.

I think it was your liberal friend Al Gore who invented the internet single-handedly.  But lets not have facts or knowledge stand get in the way of some nice liberal propaganda.

Can we get back on some Koch bashing,..,or maybe you can find a Rothshild or two to blame for all of this "oil price manipulation"

 That would really make you score some points at the next liberal cocktail party where you can get away with pretending to hold a degree in physics.

@ Jabob B

If you ever find yourself in Geneva, please give me a call, so that we could discuss my mental illness :-) 

I don't care how many degree's you have, you are a fool.

Are you talking to me? I've said this before and hope it hits home: If yes, please READ what I have written before you respond. I have never explicitly termed you arrogant. You did it to yourself.

I CAN read what you have written to others & I have, even though I had to filter it out from a pile of useless junk. There is absolutely no need to repeat it all with added junk, for it proves that you're only interested in reading all you've written.

That's a pretty unscientific approach for a man of science that you claim to be. Plus it hurts to see a grown man cry on a public forum.

Nobody os bragging about degrees camdenkarl, you are confusing me with your liberal Koch-hating friend, aka Runny.

You clearly prove one (you) doesnt need any schooling  to post links on "how big bad oil companies (Koch et al) are blocking essential research into free energy".(perpetual mobile devices)

Say what? Ppl should just pay attention what you just said above for a minute...we have someone like you being employed probably at the UN ,wanting/trying to direct energy policy.  we could be looking at a text-book example on how government allocates money correctly into essential research ( attempting to invent perpetual mobile devices).

Your office is next to the "give grants to the global warming scientists"?

I am a fool for not being ignorant and not following allong in new age dribble?

@Jacob B: Nobody os bragging about degrees...

No? I must have spoken as you on Post #40.

...your liberal Koch-hating friend...

Assumption. Unscientific for repeating it without showing any factual evidence. Here's the truth: I don't know camdenkarl. I do not hate the Kochs.

I am a fool for not being ignorant and not following allong in new age dribble?

No, you aren't. The number of assumptions & biased correlations you make outside your area of self-proclaimed expertise may reinforce that opinion. Chronically crying conspiracy on every second post adds even more fuel.

I'm not sure if you see it, there's a certain pattern to this craziness of yours: Every post of yours seems to elaborate on your own unfounded conjenctures from your own previous posts. You may want to read that latin link...a wee bit of information doesn't hurt, you know.

Take it easy, it's only a forum thread on the internet. We're NOT participating in the Int'l Physics Olympiad. If it hurts you, tell us why without crying or calling anyone names; I'm tired of babysitting someone that claims to have attended university.

Hahahaha,  just love those liberal twisting of facts and debating points...,lying shows just how weak your hand is

First, me stating towards a "perputuem mobile" advocate (mr camdenkarl, in my so  post 40)  that one is actually a skilled professional and in no need of further being schooled in his "free energy" dribble is "bragging"?(attention: this is a retorical question)

Well in western culture (whats left of it) we tend to value actual knowledge instead of equating that with some voodoo,jujuu, or other supersticeous belief system.

Thats not arrogance,.., thats how we in the West put people on the moon instead of sacrificing chickens to cure aids.

Now camdenkarl can call me "a fool" (post 68) for me not believing his "free energy" dribble. this is clearly stated, NOT because of my "biased correlations"  (ahahahahah) .  I think your high bloodpressure is causing your retina to unfocus on what is actually being written, could you calm down a bit....  I have been already threatened with violence by your koch-hating-friend.

Again runny, if you want to come to the resque of someone who calls the Koch brothers instrumental in blocking advance research into "free energy"...well,.., it makes you look a bit foolish doenst it.?

Now, how your lack of education affects your selfesteem is not really my problem so stop making it a debating point!

If you want to come to the resque of someone who calls the Koch brothers instrumental in blocking advance research into "free energy"

Prove it. 

English is difficult to read:

Post 30:

camdenkarl -->  "We should all be talking about ''free energy''" 

camndelkarl -->  "Unfortunately the powers that be (bankers/oil companies [note from me, reffering to Koch]) have suppressed all research and advancement of the technology."

Nuff said.

How does it feel defending an idiot for the last 10 posts....hahahahaha,..., whipe that egg off your face.. or go sacrifice a goat to solve climate change...

Now pretty please, sugar on top...prove that I defended those statements.

Jacob B,

The whole idea of these forums is to debate in a correct manner and you do not seem to get the point.  Should you wish to continue the discussion please refrain from recurring to personal attacks and/or insults to prove you views.

Nefertiti

hahaha

You just decided to inject yourself into the debate with me and camndencarl for no perticular reason....Now we get the "dear in the headlights":  "i dont know what  your talking about" liberal-deflection-tactic,...,Its pretty much clear to everyone on wich side of the fence you are in all this.

At least camdencarl has the balls to state what he believes in, although he is kindof making a fool of himself,..,but your addition to  physics debate is calling it "selfproclaimed" on my part hence calling it into question. OH yeah, there are some latin quates you relate to physics to make your intellectual stance look a bit interesting,..., but that didnt work out so well.

I hear camdencarl is having a soiree where birds are being launched using his patented free energy device ..., (i think they made a game about that)...

HAve fun,.., youtube it)))

Should you wish to continue the discussion please refrain from recurring to personal attacks and/or insults to prove you views.

Wow,.arent we being selective,..,and physical threats against my person are ok? How selective!

I attack the ball not the player,..., .when i call a perticular opinion "dribble" i am attacking the opinion not the person,.., please note the difference!

I've heard enough already. You are failing to make any sense. Your comprehension skills leave a lot to be desired.

Can you, or not prove that I defended those statements?

If yes, copy-paste: Yes (and prove it).

If not, copy-paste: No (and shut up).

Runnyboy,

I quoted explicitly,..., even in bold,..., why are you always intellectually dishonest?

I said MY QUOTE "...you want to come to the resque of someone who calls the Koch brothers instrumental in blocking advance research into "free energy".."

Hence where IN ABOVE STATEMENT did I claim you defended his explicit statements on free energy? some problem with short term memory perhaps? what you did was employ some failed deflection tactic in support of your fellow liberal who was bashing the Koch brothers and the oil industry in general.. The end justifies the means right?

Prove I was trying to resque (sic) anyone.

If you can't just say nothing, I'll understand. Your associative fallacies are beginning to bore me. You aren't even as creative as Roman.

quote: "..If you can't just say nothing, I'll understand...."

Well this is internet we WRITE things electronicly,.., or are you hearing voices in your head? What you cannot and can understand is not my responsibility, nor is it my dayjob to school you.

quote :"..Your associative fallacies are beginning to bore.."

Your asking for proof and I keep quoting what I wrote,..,and what this free energy nutcase is writing,.., how about we call it a day and sacrfice some goats to or other voodoo to appease the gods to stop climate change and also to stop those puppy dog killing Koch brother evil doers.

We in the west tend to trust the hard sciences, knowledge aquired through very hard and tedious work. and not having a big liberal ego,..,

but lets make an exception and shut down our neo-cortex (Centers for reason) and act utopian liberally inclided and thereby attack industrial revolution and western technology and all the great many things you enjoy in Switserland while sawing at its core foundations.

You ask me to prove things I never claimed on 3 seperate occasions,..,and i successfully did but you keep changing the questions after each successfull defeat, ,,,can you please stay on target instead of jumping around like a  hamster.

quote fallacies are beginning to bore me.

booring?, fair enough but dont you have TV for entertainment ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waEXlvat5GA

Obviously i am not boring enough,..,but rest asured a last word freak will find some off tangent red herring angle to inject the last piece of dribble into all this.

Take it away runny, the soapbox is yours.!

Your asking for proof and I keep quoting what I wrote.

Exactly. Your approach is flawed. Try again.

your dribble ".Can you, or not prove that I defended those statements?"

Where did I claim you defended those statements?, please quote me (or as you you would say )  or "shut up"..

Ok, that migh explain you siding with the  perpetium mobile crowd....(poster "camdenkarl"). We should invite some flat earthers aswell that might get the liberal party going.

It starts here. Will you be showing some evidence from my posts for these associations you have been blindly making?

Ok, that might explain you siding with the  perpetium mobile crowd....-

Again, I see nowhere I accuse you of defending any explicit statements,

Please try again, I know you can do it. or just make stuff up.

Just make stuff up.

That'd make me...you. Can you live with it?

You have indeed no problem mingling with the "Free energy" crowd

Can we get back to blaming the Koch brothers for high energy prices...(and other things greedy capitalist oil companies are guilty of)

I've been engaging with someone that seems to be the founder of Koch-Klux-Klan for over twenty posts. Free will, your majesty.

Who else I mingle with is what makes you cry this hoarse?

"..I've been engaging with someone that seems to be the founder of Koch-Klux-Klan .."

The KKK was founded by your the Democratic party (to stop further the blacks entering congress as republicans) something hardly capitalistic and certainly not very "free willish".

Could you give us some more twisting of history?