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Global Forums > Politics & Current Affairs > Is 'Israel' a meaningless term/signifer in the political forum?
 
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Is 'Israel' a meaningless term/signifer in the political forum?

Those of us who are fans of this forum are all familiar with the Palestine/Israel dilemma but how about focusing exclusively for a moment on politics in Israel and on how the far right is pushing for more aggressive behaviour by calling for more settlements. The article below could perhaps provide an interesting starting point for a conversation because, by definition, it renders impossible the making of any generalisations about Israelis and demands that we all recognize the diversity of opinion within the state of Israel.


Like any country in the world Israel has a citizenry who do not agree with each other on many points. So rather than talking about 'Israel' in our discussions we could attempt to be as precise as we possibly can.  Here's the link to the article, the headline and the sub-heading.


http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-must-annex-west-bank-settlements-right-wing-mks-tell-netanyahu-1.387018


Israel must annex West Bank settlements, right-wing MKs tell Netanyahu
In letter to premier, leaders of several Knesset factions say Israel must retaliate against the Palestinians' 'unilateral' statehood bid at the UN, or risk losing its deterrence.

By Jonathan Lis

The text you are quoting:

Those of us who are fans of this forum are all familiar with the Palestine/Israel dilemma but how about focusing exclusively for a moment on politics in Israel and on how the far right is pushing for more aggressive behaviour by calling for more settlements. The article below could perhaps provide an interesting starting point for a conversation because, by definition, it renders impossible the making of any generalisations about Israelis and demands that we all recognize the diversity of opinion within the state of Israel.


Like any country in the world Israel has a citizenry who do not agree with each other on many points. So rather than talking about 'Israel' in our discussions we could attempt to be as precise as we possibly can.  Here's the link to the article, the headline and the sub-heading.


http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-must-annex-west-bank-settlements-right-wing-mks-tell-netanyahu-1.387018


Israel must annex West Bank settlements, right-wing MKs tell Netanyahu
In letter to premier, leaders of several Knesset factions say Israel must retaliate against the Palestinians' 'unilateral' statehood bid at the UN, or risk losing its deterrence.

By Jonathan Lis


manics1984Sep 27, 2011 @ 21:58
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Re: Is 'Israel' a meaningless term/signifer in the political forum?
Post 1

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/27/benjamin-netanyahu-settlement-freeze_n_982921.html


I just feel hopeless that there will ever be peaceful co-existence in this land.


Why does the US insist that the Palestinian issue must not be resolved in the UN? 


 

The text you are quoting:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/27/benjamin-netanyahu-settlement-freeze_n_982921.html


I just feel hopeless that there will ever be peaceful co-existence in this land.


Why does the US insist that the Palestinian issue must not be resolved in the UN? 


 


amna a, Sep 28, 2011 @ 11:08
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Re: Is 'Israel' a meaningless term/signifer in the political forum?
Post 2

Thanks Shaun and Amna for your time and contributions. 


@shaun: yes of course you're right. on the stage of international politics we are obliged to take democratic governments as a perfect reflection of the huge collection of people they are supposed to represent, otherwise no peace treaties could ever be signed and nothing would get done.


not arguing that point i still think it's worthwhile to focus on the political stress lines within israel in order to imagine where future peace deals may originate from. this idea links into the question you understandably pose, amna, concerning whether peace will ever be possible. i believe it will. hope lies in the cracks - on both sides! after all, if Israel as a signifier only links to the signified of 'bellicose land grabber', well, it's difficult to see the point of any negotiations.


 

The text you are quoting:

Thanks Shaun and Amna for your time and contributions. 


@shaun: yes of course you're right. on the stage of international politics we are obliged to take democratic governments as a perfect reflection of the huge collection of people they are supposed to represent, otherwise no peace treaties could ever be signed and nothing would get done.


not arguing that point i still think it's worthwhile to focus on the political stress lines within israel in order to imagine where future peace deals may originate from. this idea links into the question you understandably pose, amna, concerning whether peace will ever be possible. i believe it will. hope lies in the cracks - on both sides! after all, if Israel as a signifier only links to the signified of 'bellicose land grabber', well, it's difficult to see the point of any negotiations.


 


manics1984, Sep 28, 2011 @ 13:48
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Re: Is 'Israel' a meaningless term/signifer in the political forum?
Post 3

Jan 1, 70 01:00

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,788835,00.html


http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,787889,00.html


No, it is not true that the US and Israel are the only nations "who see eye to eye" on this issue.


"It's the latest example of how EU coherence is being sacrificed to national interests. Already hardly anyone expects the EU to present a unified vote if the Palestinian status comes before the United Nations General Assembly in New York. Meanwhile the four countries currently sitting on the UN Security Council -- Britain, France, Germay and Portugal -- are also unlikely to agree on a single stance."


UN votes will not do much to change the facts on the ground.  Just as in South  Africa, the parties themselves must arrive at a solution eventually.

The text you are quoting:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,788835,00.html


http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,787889,00.html


No, it is not true that the US and Israel are the only nations "who see eye to eye" on this issue.


"It's the latest example of how EU coherence is being sacrificed to national interests. Already hardly anyone expects the EU to present a unified vote if the Palestinian status comes before the United Nations General Assembly in New York. Meanwhile the four countries currently sitting on the UN Security Council -- Britain, France, Germay and Portugal -- are also unlikely to agree on a single stance."


UN votes will not do much to change the facts on the ground.  Just as in South  Africa, the parties themselves must arrive at a solution eventually.


Translator, Sep 28, 2011 @ 14:51
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Re: Is 'Israel' a meaningless term/signifer in the political forum?
Post 4

You're right Translator, of course it's up to Israel and Palestine to sort this out. But it's kind of hard for any meaningful negotiation to take place when the Israeli government knows it can act the maggot (ah, idiomatic...meaning it knows it can act in a naughty way) and rely on the us veto to protect it from any kind of international sanctions.


and it's not just the US government of course. but they are the teacher in the schoolyard watching the bully smack the little kid around and doing precisely nothing about it.


p.s. i don't hate the USA! the wire! the wire!!!!! only the US could write, produce and film the wire! 

The text you are quoting:

You're right Translator, of course it's up to Israel and Palestine to sort this out. But it's kind of hard for any meaningful negotiation to take place when the Israeli government knows it can act the maggot (ah, idiomatic...meaning it knows it can act in a naughty way) and rely on the us veto to protect it from any kind of international sanctions.


and it's not just the US government of course. but they are the teacher in the schoolyard watching the bully smack the little kid around and doing precisely nothing about it.


p.s. i don't hate the USA! the wire! the wire!!!!! only the US could write, produce and film the wire! 


manics1984, Sep 28, 2011 @ 15:18
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Re: Is 'Israel' a meaningless term/signifer in the political forum?
Post 5

If the EU had a more unified foreign policy position on this issue, the US might  be forced  to adjust  its position somewhat.  In addition, I doubt that the US exerts any significant pressure on China or Russia on this particular issue.


The dirty, open "secret" about this situation is that very few countries back the Palestinian quest for statehood, even amongst the Arab nations. But it is very convenient for them to point the finger at others.  


I do not agree with most aspects of US mid-east policy. It would help if the Palestinians developed a coalition provisional government.  


 

The text you are quoting:

If the EU had a more unified foreign policy position on this issue, the US might  be forced  to adjust  its position somewhat.  In addition, I doubt that the US exerts any significant pressure on China or Russia on this particular issue.


The dirty, open "secret" about this situation is that very few countries back the Palestinian quest for statehood, even amongst the Arab nations. But it is very convenient for them to point the finger at others.  


I do not agree with most aspects of US mid-east policy. It would help if the Palestinians developed a coalition provisional government.  


 


Translator, Sep 28, 2011 @ 15:26
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Re: Is 'Israel' a meaningless term/signifer in the political forum?
Post 6

Jan 1, 70 01:00

Rabbi Kahane was one such loonie as is Foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman.  The President with his sex scandal.  I guess they (Israelis) are just like the rest of us and have a range of politicians though certainly what I read from Jewish commentators in Israel suggest an increasing right wing swing, rich-poor divide and authoritarianism.


So we all have skeletons in the closet but shouldn't hide them or pretend they don't exist and make silly racist remarks about other cultures/countries/ethnicities.

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Rabbi Kahane was one such loonie as is Foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman.  The President with his sex scandal.  I guess they (Israelis) are just like the rest of us and have a range of politicians though certainly what I read from Jewish commentators in Israel suggest an increasing right wing swing, rich-poor divide and authoritarianism.


So we all have skeletons in the closet but shouldn't hide them or pretend they don't exist and make silly racist remarks about other cultures/countries/ethnicities.


Marksist, Sep 29, 2011 @ 00:52
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Re: Is 'Israel' a meaningless term/signifer in the political forum?
Post 7

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,788835,00.html

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,787889,00.html

No, it is not true that the US and Israel are the only nations "who see eye to eye" on this issue.

"It's the latest example of how EU coherence is being sacrificed to national interests. Already hardly anyone expects the EU to present a unified vote if the Palestinian status comes before the United Nations General Assembly in New York. Meanwhile the four countries currently sitting on the UN Security Council -- Britain, France, Germay and Portugal -- are also unlikely to agree on a single stance."

UN votes will not do much to change the facts on the ground.  Just as in South  Africa, the parties themselves must arrive at a solution eventually.


Sep 28, 11 14:51

And who does the impotent Middle East Quartet comprise: US, EU, Russia and the UN.

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And who does the impotent Middle East Quartet comprise: US, EU, Russia and the UN.


Marksist, Sep 29, 2011 @ 00:59
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Re: Is 'Israel' a meaningless term/signifer in the political forum?
Post 8

Shaun:


Haaretz is a well established and well respected daily newspaper in Israel. It's consider high quality and non sensational. It's not as popular as the tabloids tho. I don't know its market share, but I would bet its not high. Sort of like Le Temps in Geneva. 


Nir

The text you are quoting:

Shaun:


Haaretz is a well established and well respected daily newspaper in Israel. It's consider high quality and non sensational. It's not as popular as the tabloids tho. I don't know its market share, but I would bet its not high. Sort of like Le Temps in Geneva. 


Nir


Nir Ofek, Oct 9, 2011 @ 22:10
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