Reportedly:
- A right-wing yoga guru with a certain amount of undeclared assets is hoping to twist the Indian Govt's arm against black money
- Pakistan has had series of blasts over the last two years
- A Bangladeshi woman 'bobbited' her neighbour and went to the police station with the prize.
- Al Qaida's food bio-terror looms over the United Kingdom

but, these are just things that newspapers tell us. We don't believe them.

When it comes to Gaza, we know exactly what's happening at grass-root level.

Well, yes, of course... the other topic is that Obama -- the black man who was supposed to save the universe -- is a "war monger..." 

It is not enough for journalists to see themselves as mere messengers without understanding the hidden agendas of the message and the myths that surround it. - John Pilger

So if there exists no hidden agenda, we must add some. Add Google keywords 'Obama', 'Sarkozy', 'Merkel'. One sec, let's sprinkle some 'Barack' & 'Israel' masala as well. How else'd we get blog hits? - Some crazy wise guy called Anonymous

Quick answer.

Everybody here seems "to give a damn" about many global situations besides Gaza, i.e. the killing of Osama Bin Laden, Netanyahu and the American Congress, Obama and the Middle-East, Wikileaks, Libya, The UN Security Council, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, racism, the military, Strauss-Khan, ex-Yugoslavia ......

No,  much of the "criticism" is directed towards two countries -- the US and Israel.  And there is very little else.  And unfortunately, much of it is ill-informed and based upon one or two sources at the most.  It does not add much to the debate.

I care alot about the fact that Youtube keeps banning me from seeing videos cuz of my country.  I have resorted to watching a Spanish version of GLEE!

That is MY global situation.  

I will also add UK.

I really appreciate your objectivity, based on facts you are the first one who blames your country as David Lawson does also the same with UK.

So far with what I have seen on the different Glocals forums, I really think for some people it is hard to be objective, I have the impression they will never admit facts which condemned or blamed their countries or their countries by hearts.

I can be wrong but for example I have never seen on the differant Glocals forums an Israelie or an Israel lover critized the Israelie Policy.

Thanks, David. That's exactly the point. We'd love to hear your personal points of view on such debates. I mean - your own.

I mean, points of view that come without 'Pilg'ing, 'Fisk'ing or coming straight from the 'Hart'.

I think that way, we could build a serious debate. Some of these folks are already known for their hardline stance, making it hard for everyone else to actually discuss personal viewpoints. Their quasi-royal, sensationalist perspectives seem to often override the focus of our commoner debate. 

Arun, you forgot to include Morrisey in that as well.

Cheers.

Shsh. He's Indian. That makes him closer to God, enlightenment, paradise & his 72 virgins than anyone else.

Correction...71...since  I think I might have deflowered one of em recently...

Anyway , back to topic.... I give a damn, but my views are mine alone, and in order to avoid being seen as more politically incorrect than i am already I keep em to myself and let others debate publically... since debate here solves nothing except the venting of views..

World peace to all...

LOL! Are you ready to give up on your 15 nano-seconds of fame; when our mega-mixed-cross-bred descendents unearth glocals.com after 20 light years, in search of the one & only ultimate truth?

to answer the handsome guy from Geneva ,

I think that i have not seen Moslems criticise Moslem countries

but there is chomsky and Jstreet and many others criticising Israeli policy

and on this forum i know of one person who is of Jewish origin who contributes a lot of wood to the fire...

Israel is a country where there is a spectrum of opinions which unforunately i have not seen in the neighberhood

as for criticising Israeli policy, imagine Buddhists or christians or jews deciding

that part of Mecca or Median are theirs because they lives there for some time

can you imagine how the local population would react?

I think that relativity is a good term, it is ok to criticize a policy or action

of a country but when it is so harshly criticised ignoring the circumstances

and demanding from a country what would not be demanded from anyone else that is where you got your answer

and i quite agree with you that all extremism of any religion or country

is negative which is why i think this extreme focus on Israeli policy while

ignoring historical processes and the fact that the neighbors consistantly

ignore human rights and do not stick to one peace agreement is definitely

in my opinion an exemple of extremism .

There is a saying" two jews three opinions", i hope you dont find that last

sentence racist...but Israel is a tiny country made up of refugees that is not

perfect but definitely worked hard to provide a shelter place for the refugees

but the fact is that not Europe nor the surrounding Arab lands had taken

responsibility for creating this tragic situation where jews had no place to go

and must live in a constant conflict with its neighbors because they refuse

to recognize an international decision for a jewish state.

There are plenty of people supporting the rights of arabs living in Israel

to their own political entity but not a lot support pressuring israel to give up

land in return for a better aim for the rockets , does that answer your question ?

P.S. i hope that calling you handsome does not come off as sexist but well 

you do have quite an attractive profile photo that draws attention to your 

body rather than your brain

please dont ban me from being allured by your charming figure

charlie: ''debate here solves nothing except the venting of views'' there's wisdom in what that irish fella charlie said...

contrary little creature that i am i would point out one possible positive about not keeping one's opinions to oneself - as long as they are expressed as politely as possible and with due regard for other people's personal interpretation of reality (given that no one has access to anything other than an interpretation) - is that one can find like minds and, even better, unlike minds to chat with, which tends to make one more sensitive to that grainy subtlety of detail which often get screened out by our culturally constructed filters of perception.

i have not seen France lovers   criticise strauss kahn being elected into such high office or French immigration policy or France foreign policy and how they intent on making up for the Algier tragedy and other colonist mistakes they created in the middle east and Africa

it might be that France distracts world criticism by providing too many good looking French guys on the net and  romantic chansons  ..but that is only my personal theory

I don't have your ability for diplomacy....

I did comment on religeon once... i.e that I cant prove a "non existence" of God(s), but that equally no one can prove to me an "existence" of one or other. So that conversation ended pretty quickly.

For war and murder and other bad stuff... I dont give a flying fekk if youre eastern, western, northern, or southern, or what religeon or creed you hold to... murder is bad, and never justified, no excuses.

As to politics ... the only relevance I have to that term is my "incorrectness". hence I abstain.

(I did my joke, so now will leave the stage to more sage brains than mine.)

Cher star,

Welcome back to glocal underbelly of political brouhaha, which lets us freely exercise our liberty of dispensing global low-blows.

Your personal theories based on profile pictures exude a great understanding of international harmony. Unfortunately, I'm unable to comprehend a word of it, since you've summarized your theory with restricted usage of the Enter key.

The French criticize everything. At this moment, I can see that - deep inside, they are truly unhappy that DSK ain't being tried in France, but in the US.

Les Francais go to certain depths of auto-critique that perhaps does not exist in many other cultures. I'm yet to meet another 'colonising' population, which is as ashamed of its past as the French. Still, it'd be incorrect to say that all of them subscribe to such evil, self-criticizing concepts that takes the life out of us etrangers.

To help erase such misconceptions, I highly recommend a subscription to Canal+ and/or Mediapart. Regrettably, like all the good French stuff, both are not completely free.

I have also met Muslims who criticize Muslim states, having lived in one and being surrounded by people of all faiths (& none) all the time.

The trick is - to let them criticize themselves, if you start doing it for them, they'll start defending themselves. We Indians talk about peace & act like Gandhi while outside. But we too, ridicule each other in our own languages, on the basis of race, religion, caste, culture, language, geography, food etc.

You are right, we don't have the experience of living in Israel to know how strenuous life can be, living there. Blindly criticizing Israel, while sitting on our bottoms does not make sense all the time.

That also makes me right (for a change) - you (perhaps) don't have the misfortune of being surrounded by the type, that are constantly bickering about their own country/religion. I somehow, am subjected to such torture on a daily basis...

I'd also appreciate if you could provide me some of your valuable feedback on my profile picture, its yellow-purple ball and my countrymen. Inshallah, you'll oblige.

AK74 - Duc de Ghetto-Francais

It is hard for a lof of French people to admit, that France has committed atrocities in Algeria and during its colonization period. Personally I am not proud at all and I have already even expressed myself clearly in the forum below that I was not proud at all about the crimes committed by country during its colonisation period:

Palestine Conference - some straight talking. How refreshing - Glocals‎

Btw I am French and very proud about my culture and the history of my country, however when Sarkosy decided to bombard Libya, according to him in order to help the Libyan people and we all know it is for oil purposes. I am ashamed and blamed my country to kill civilian people called casualties...

I am not sure you are able to do the same…

http://www.theonion.com/articles/god-angrily-clarifies-dont-kill-rule,222/

Ariel- quick answer: yes.

Dear star,

Your post was adressed to "the handsome guy from Geneva" but I though I'll throw in a few comments.

......As for criticising Israeli policies, imagine Budisth or Christians or Jews deciding that part of Mecca of Medina was theirs because they lived there for sometime, can you imagine how the local population would react?

Precissely what Palestinians have been trying to tell the world for sixty years now. How come Jews from any country in the world have the right to "return" to Israel on the basis of having lived there 2,000 years ago and we do not have any rights in our own country?. You can very well imagine how they, the local population, would react to this.

cher Arun

as for your profile picture

your karma ran over my dogma

as for the french , je ne sais pas ,  put the blame  on carla   Bruni

i think it works most of the time but i could be wrong as my theories are largely influenced by shallow factors of midlife crisis , i admit, the French guy has me in his spell, i am slowly converting to franchism and will soon criticise Israel and throw stones at myself and the glass house in which i live

adoring

star ( here's   looking at you kid)

It is very obvious, but it looks like is not for some people...

Dear Nefertiti,

The area around Mecca and Medina was populated with so called 'pageans' and jewish tribes in fact. But these were either converted to Islam or simply killed when the prophet conquered Mecca (to summarize the account). 

In addition to your comment, then let's also address the around 800'000 Jews that were displaced from Arabic countries... should these also claim right to return? 

For more info, you can check out the following site/articles:

http://www.justiceforjews.com/guardian_reponse.html

Dear Sarah,

My point was very obvious and it was a reply to an imaginary situation outlined by Star (I am not sure you have read her quote). As far as I can recall there were no Budists in the area around Mecca and Medina, were they?

I do not see your comment as an addition to mine but as an imaginary situtation for which I have no answer, do you?

The Law of Return is a reality that allows Jews from any country in the world to emigrate to Israel. In many cases, new immigrants simply move to the occuppied West Bank because housing is cheaper there..

I can recall a statement by a group of British Jews a few years ago in which they renounced to their "right of return" because they thought it was detrimental for the local Palestinian population. I could find the link if you are interested to know more about it.

Very classical, first we demonize the Arab and Muslim people, by saying they have killed and they have done atrocities…, secondly we explain we are the good people.

For your information ALL RELIGIONS have a dark past, people have been forced to convert to survive and some have been KILLED.

The most shameful drama in the human history had been done by Europeans; it is a fact and we all responsible of this…

As far as I know they were no problems between Jews from Arabic countries before the Israel creation. For example the Sephardi Jews have been persecuted by CHRISTIANS in the late 15th century and they found security in North Africa, Turkey (MUSLIM LAND) and all others Mediterranean countries.

I am for the 800 000 Jews displaced from Arabic countries have the right to return as much as the 700 000 Palestinians refugees has the right to return.

hi

just to explain, the theoratical  situation  i had given was to explain how 

a religious jew sees the settlement situation, the religious jew thinks that 

the land of Israel is as holy as mecca and Medina is to the Moslems 

so you can understand how emotional this situation is 

the religious jews going to settle in the territories see that as part of the holy

land that can not be separated just as mecca and medina has never been

divided..

If you see it from their point of view perhaps you can see that everyone

has their particular point of view.

I think it is important to understand that people have different ways of seeing

a given situation and posting only ONE way of seeing reality i think would

not do justice to how complex the situation is nor should we offer one way 

and dismiss any other person's opinion however when this net is bombarded 

with constant posts criticising israel i do think there is a need to realize 

other people have their views and presenting ONE side as violent intolerant 

and unwilling to compromise does not present the reality which is made up 

of several intolerant people unwilling to compromise

the bottom line is like PM Nethanyu says

"If the palestinians had put down their weapons there would be peace

had Israel put down their weapons there would be no Israel"

The ruling party of the palestinians has declared clear intentions of not 

tolerating a jewish existence in the form of the state of Israel 

as long as that is the reality there is no need to criticise Israel 

and i do believe that many people posting on this forum agree with 

the idea that the state of Israel is something that never should have existed

in the first place

how do you agree your right to exist as a country when people are intolerant

to understanding the spectrum and insist on bringing provacative material ?

I feel that i can never convince anyone nor have them see any other point 

of view because they refuse to see any other point of view but reality is

dear Nefertiti is more than poor palestinians and viicious occupying jews

the reality is that everyone wants a piece of the cake

and who should get it ?

sharing would be nice but blaming Israel consistantly and ignoring the other

side's refusal to recognize Israel is not going to get anyone enlightened

just barking the same vicious agenda which i am really tired of

but insist on playing along because someone has to do the job

and the majority (in this case this forum) is not right simply because others cant be bothered to answer them

have a good day, i have to go and have a life too 

I understand for the Jews, Israel is the holy land, it is also a holy land for Christians and Muslims. I am for Israel living in peace with the Palestinians. I am concerned about human rights and people are dying.

I don’t understand the Israeli policy they put the responsibility to the Palestinians, however according to the facts below, it looks like they are suffering more about the conflicts.

124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,452 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

Source: Remember These Children, a coalition of groups calling for an end to the killing of children and a fair resolution of the conflict. (View the complete list of the victims, which was last updated on September 7, 2010.

At least 6,430 Palestinians and 1,084 Israelis
have been killed since September 29, 2000.

Source: B'Tselem, The Israeli Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories. (Visit their statistics page, last updated Oct. 31, 2010.)

The U.S. is providing Israel with at least $8.2 million each day* in military aid and is giving the Palestinians $0** in military aid during Fiscal Year 2011.

The source for US military aid to Israel during Fiscal Year 2011 is the Congressional Research Service’s “U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel,” written by Jeremy M. Sharp, Specialist in Middle Eastern Affairs, updated September 16, 2010. According to this report, the Obama Administration requested $3 billion in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) for Israel for the fiscal year 2011.

Israel is the target of at least 65 UN Resolutions and the Palestinians are the target of none.
Source: Paul Findley’s Deliberate Deceptions (1998, pages 192-4). This number only covers resolUN Resolutions Against Israel, 1955-1992.
 
1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 5,935 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.

Source: Addameer Prisoners’ Support and Human Rights Association (as of January 1, 2011)

0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 24,813 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967.

Statistics Source: The Israeli Committee Against Home Demolitions estimates that 24,813 houses have been demolished in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza since 1967 (as of July 28, 2010). (Read ICAHD's latest analysis of demolished homes and view relevant maps.)

Sarah regarding reconversion have you heard about the Sabbateans? I found this community interestind and it might interests you too.

It is a group of crypto-Jews in the Ottoman Empire and present-day Turkey who openly affiliated with Islam and secretly practiced a form of Judaism.

it refers to a variety of followers of, disciples and believers in Sabbatai Zevi (1626–1676), a Jewish rabbi, who has been forced to convert to islam by the Ottoman Sultan Mehmed IV.

After Zevi's conversion, a number of Jews followed him into Islam and became the Dönmeh.

Nowadays the Donmeh are very present in the turkish politic as the two former minister of foreign affairs as İsmail Cem and Coşkun Kırca in 1995, both of them helped Turkey to have to good relation with Israel.

Hi Felipe,

For the comment 'demonizing' on earlier post - I think you are unfair, I was just trying to bring some historical information, that's all. I know perfectly that most religions have very dark backgrounds and I am appalled at what Christianity has done, no worries - I could post more on this but would be out of context on this thread.

Thanks for the Sabbateans info - I did not know and yes it sounds interesting, will look into that.

Regards,

Dear Breshna,

I do not see anything disrespectul in the way Sarah referred to your Prophet when she gave some historical facts about Mohammed conquering Mecca.

Can you please elaborate on this?

thanks

Breshna, that is a racist post.

Thank you Breshna.

Dear Breshna,

First of all my apologies for my blatant comment.  To me the bit........"Israel would banish" sounded racist but I did not really understand your sentence.  I should have asked you first to explain the meaning of it.

Now that you explain this was reply to a quote by Star, I leave it to you two to elaborate because I fail to understand both your point regarding Mecca and Medina.

In good faith.

A spelling mistake!  Quelle horreur!!  Of course I meant "vanish"

Dear Breshna

Please explain to me in a personal message as this is the last post i place in this thread how is it for you because i really dont understand how you could have misunderstood my words.

I only wrote that religious jews see the land of Israel as holy just as the Moslems see Mecca and Medina as holy , which is absolutly their right

Furthermore in another thread i wrote a Dutch person criticising Israel about the Dutch racist politician who was invited by SVP to Geneva, a visit which has been cancelled.

You are absolutly calling racist to the wrong person, and i wonder is it because i failed to explain myself in a clear enough way or is it because i am from Israel.

I see you are from Afganistan, i have read books by the writer Husseni and i am very sad for what had happened to your country and to women there and it did open me up to a new world. I hope you dont dislike this writer who had taken a brave stand against totalitarian regime .

I think you should apologize to me for this un necessary attack and i also think the Isrealis running this net should not send me out there

While i am here for the last time let me correct a bit of the tons of ignorance exposed here:

1973 was a war that began on Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calender, it was a surprise attack on Israel and Israel did not lose Sinai in war but gave sinai back to Egypt in a peace agreement signed in 1982 with the late Egyptian president Sadat, may he rest in peace, murdered by fanatics anti peace people of his country. 

I think you jump at every word i write but you must understand i am just telling how the religious jews see it, i myself do not find anything holy in anyone but life , life is holy and any loss of life is a tragedy. I would only wish that those syrians murdered by the scores by their regime would get half as much exposure and that your country also manages to fight fanatic forces so that people can finally live in peace.

Blaming another country or people blindly will get you no where

"An eye for an eye makes everyone blind" Ghandi said

If i had expressed myself in any way that may have appeared that i attack Moslems that is absolutly not what i had meant, perhaps like you i felt attacked and became a bit  emotional but lets give people the benefit of the doubt. I have nothing but respect for other people^s cultures and traditions  and you must not read into my words just because i am an Israeli , i was explaining a position that is all, and if it were mine, i think it would still be alright , because everyone has a right to their opinion as long as they dont hurt anyone. I am surprised that due to your country's violent past and present situation you focus on Israel at all, i would think you have enough work to do to help your people .

And no, religion has nothing to do with politics or war , but if it makes people blindly hate others, you wonder what is the point? any religion can be interpreted and understood in different ways.

respectfully yours

for the very last time

adieu masaalam namaste shalom

Dear Breshna,

I am sorry that you feel so hurt by my post but I will certainly not apologize for it. I do not feel I insulted Islam, in particular I only referred to what is already well documented on many sites, books, etc.

Here more reference for what I alluded to previously, so that you know I am not making this up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_the_Banu_Qurayza

The Open University, Walton Hall, Milton Keynes, MK7 6AA, Copyright 1997 The Open University, Prepared for the course team by Kenneth Cragg 'Islam':

p.17: Thus it was that the Jews of Khaibar, a large settlement many leagues from Medina fell under Muhammad's ban and had their property confiscated. The darkest event of all was the violent massacre of the Banu Quraizah, which the earliest historians of Islam narrate without demur. Modern writers prefer to observe quite truly, that its cruelty contrasted sharply with the generous magnanimity with which Muhammad treated Mecca when it finally surrended.'

On the question why Islam and Israel, and apart from the fact that Israel is surrounded with islamic countries and that there are many muslim israelis - well, maybe you want to check out one the below, said by one muslim himself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Fic15V8ChE

With regards to your reaction, I do find peculiar I must say that many subjects have been discussed on this site and quite vehemently many times but that you feel Islam has been insulted in this particular case. 

Regards,

Sarah

How did we get here?  This thread started with an agressive question by Ariel (who's been silent ever since) and we end up angry, frustrated and fighthing among each other.

Well, personally, I prefer to look at the glass as half full and I am going to tell you a story (at the risk of sounding patronizing and a bit superior).

There's a small West Bank village called Nabi-Elias which is only a km away from Israel. A settlement overlooks the village and has taken a considerable chunk of the villager's land. The road that cuts-in the village is a busy one, It connects Israel to some of the settlements and it is of course also the road used by Palestinians to circulate within the West Bank.  Shatha runs a pharmacy there and deals equally with Palestinian and Israeli customers on a daily basis.  On my last visit there I had a discussion with an elderly Israeli customer who'd been through every possible war.  He told me his only wish was to wake up one day to a country in peace and where both people were sharing the land. 

Star, if your are interested, I could give you Shata's phone number so that you two could exchange opinions.  You gave me the idea when you suggested this to the Dutch guy (sorry, I do not remember your name) in relation to your friend who survived WW2.

These threads about Israel-Palestine do not seem to lead us anywhere and I''ll keep away from them from now on.  But at the same time it has been interesting discussing with all of you.

Hasta la vista!!

(AK's Thought Bubble)

I wish someone would take some pot-shots of the religion into which, I was born (by default). It'd provide me some opportunity to at least help some folks understand that in essence it's all the same thing!

Everyone wants peace, but no one wants to understand that it canNOT come from quoting history blindly, believing facts are only - where WE choose to look.

History is full of idiots who found nonsensical reasons to make war. With dimwits among them, who thought peace was still possible & thus created religion, nations, laws, etc. Which the idiots took to make more war - against which the dimwits kept creating more Gods. We now have as many Gods (we've started to make temples for cinema actresses) as humans in my country and the Tigers are complaining.

AK's Conclusion: It doesn't matter which religion you belong to - you're either an idiot or a dimwit.

As for me - I'm both.

(AK's Thought Bubble will self destruct in 5 seconds)

So where were we? Necessity mothered invention...or something like that, right?

Me, I'm with the Tigers...like Katt Williams

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2011/jun/08/east-jerusalem-israel-palestine-interactive

Four Palestinians and two Israelis used cameras provided by the Guardian and B'Tselem human rights organisation to record video diaries about their lives and experiences in East Jerusalem

Cynthia McKinney "Former US Congresswoman and former presidential candidate for Green Party" interviewed on Press TV on Sat, 21 May 2011 before the AIPAC conference said:

"Every Incoming Member of Congress Must Sign Pledge of Allegiance to Israel"

 "If you don't sign the pledge, you don't get money for your campaign"

Do you think it is true?

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/181233.html

@Trancelator: How typically American. Reading our thought bubbles, stealing our cartoons, truncating Apu's family name & selling him back to us, wrapped in banana leaves.

I like this guy Mearsheimer - it couldn't be folks with backbones, who put (a) man on the moon. That too such (a) man who, succumbing to lesser gravity, swallowed the most open vowel/syllable, which comes first in most languages.

Silent, but not absent. I was merely waiting to see if anyone would say, 'Yes, for example, I find this international affair to also be worthy of discussion. Lets talk about it.'

Seeing as how that hasn't happened, and the usual anti-Israel rhetoric has been even more disgusting than usual, I retire. Enjoy the bickering. 

Yep, no double standards here. Not aimed at your Breshna, but it'd be nice to see some of this righteous rage put to the defense of Jew and Israelis. 

Ah right, I forgot, not a single person here is even slightly anti-Semitic. Its just those pesky Israelis y'all can't stand. 

What do you mean by "not a single person here is even slightly anti-Semitic"?

A more balanced and interesting discussion on the issue could include the following issues:

1) The differences between Fatah and Hamas, the importance of long-term corruption in Palestinian Authority under Arafat and the role it played in the rise of Hamas:

 The first attempt at cultivating an Arafat alternative under the rubric of the international Quartet’s “Roadmap for Peace” effort in 2003 was to transfer several of Arafat’s powers to Mahmoud Abbas as PA Prime Minister. Although an Arafat associate, Abbas had a reputation as an advocate for a negotiated peace with Israel, and was critical of the Palestinian turn to violence during the second intifada. The U.S. and international attempt to empower Abbas, however, proved abortive, as Arafat would not relinquish control over key PA security and financial power centers, and Abbas resigned in frustration in October 2003 after only six months in office.

Following Arafat’s death in November 2004, Mahmoud Abbas was elected PA president in January 2005. However, polling data between 1996 and 2004 showed a significant drop in support for Fatah against a backdrop of widespread political alienation. Most observers believe Fatah’s decline was due to the public’s perception that the PA was rife with corruption, out of touch with the populace, and had failed to achieve progress toward statehood or provide law and order.

 http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/R41514.pdf

Hamas : Background and Issues for Congress, US Congressional Research Service, December 2, 2010

 2) Who are Hamas and what are their goals?

No Palestinian movement has benefitted more from, or contributed more to, Fatah’s weakening than Hamas, which is an Arabic acronym for the “Islamic Resistance Movement.” Hamas, for many years the main opposition force in the Palestinian territories, grew out of the Muslim Brotherhood, a religious and political organization founded in Egypt in 1928 with branches throughout the Arab world. Since Hamas’s inception, it has maintained its primary base of support and particularly strong influence in the Gaza Strip, even though its top leadership is headquartered in exile in Damascus, Syria.

Hamas combines Palestinian nationalism with Islamic fundamentalism. Its founding charter commits the group to the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic state in all of historic Palestine.

 Written in 1988, Hamas’s charter is explicit about the struggle for Palestine being a religious obligation. It describes the land as a waqf, or religious endowment, saying that no one can “abandon it or part of it.” In the charter, Hamas describes itself as “a distinct Palestinian Movement which owes its loyalty to Allah” and that strives to “raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.” It calls for the elimination of Israel and Jews from Islamic holy land and portrays the Jews in decidedly negative terms, citing anti-Semitic texts. Some observers also note that no Hamas leader is on record as sanctioning a permanent recognition of Israel’s right to exist side by side with an independent Palestinian state or as expressing a willingness to disarm or to stop attacks on Israel and Israelis.

 http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL34074.pdf

 The Palestinians: Background and U.S. Relations, US Congressional Research Service, January 8, 2010

Another issue to take up might be to question why other Arab nations don't provide more funding for Palestinians through UNWRA:

"The United States is the largest single-state donor to UNRWA, which provides food, shelter, medical care, and education for many of the original refugees from the 1948 Arab-Israeli war and their descendants—now comprising approximately 4.8 million Palestinians in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, the West Bank, and Gaza.  U.S. contributions to UNRWA—separate from U.S. bilateral aid to the West Bank and Gaza—come from the Migration and Refugee Assistance (MRA) account and the Emergency Refugee and Migration Assistance (ERMA) account. Since UNRWA’s inception in 1950, the United States has provided the agency with nearly $4 billion in contributions).

Until the 1990s, Arab governments refrained from contributing to UNRWA’s budget in an effort to keep the Palestinian refugee issue on the international agenda and to press Israel to accept responsibility for their plight. Since then, most Arab states have made relatively small annual contributions.

According to UNRWA’s website (http://www.unrwa.org/userfiles/file/financial_updates/2009/Total_Contributions_to_UNRWA_2009_All_Donors.pdf),

U.S. contributions in 2009 constituted approximately 20% of the UNRWA General Fund budget and 27% of the total budget. Aggregate contributions from the European Commission and European states (including both EU members and non-members) and regions constituted approximately 52% of the total budget.  

US Foreign Aid to the Palestinians, US Congressional Research Service,

August 12, 2010

 http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22967.pdf

Of course, some might say that the US gives much more to Israel on an anuual basis and that would be true. This does not prohibit the Arab nations, especially those in OPEC from contributing to the assistance of the Palestinians through a UN agency.

More problems with Hamas...

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/hamas-considering-hands-off-approach-in-palestinian-unity-government-1.366790

"After four years of turbulent rule in the Gaza Strip, the Islamic militant group Hamas is weighing a new strategy of not directly participating in future governments even if it wins elections — an approach aimed at avoiding isolation by the world community and allowing for continued economic aid.

Hamas officials told The Associated Press the idea has gained favor in recent closed meetings of the secretive movement's leadership in the West Bank, Gaza, Egypt and Syria, and that it helped enable last month's reconciliation agreement with the rival Fatah group of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas....

The new approach reflects both the group's rigidity and its pragmatism: On the one hand, Hamas refuses to meet widespread global demands that it accept Israel's right to exist; on the other, its leaders grasp the price Palestinians would pay if the Islamic militants emerged fully in charge of a future government."

Just for your information since 1995, Transparency International (TI) a non-governmental organization that monitors and publicizes corporate and political corruption in international development, has published an annual Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) ordering the countries of the world (178 countries) according to "the degree to which corruption is perceived to exist among public officials and politicians». The organization defines corruption as "the abuse of entrusted power for private gain.

Please find below the results for 2010

http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010/results

Results by rank for the Middle East Countries in 2010:

Israel: 30

Jordan: 50

Egypt: 98

Lebanon: 127

Syria: 127

Palestine: no listed

hi 

i swore i would never post again but have been deeply moved by a blog i read

and need to point out the following facts

Jordan occupied the west bank  and east jerusalem from 1948 to 1967 when Israel conquered 

.

Most Jews living in Israel today are liberal secular jews who dont plan on leaving Israel and going into exile

I believe most israelis would be willing to share  TINY israel , the only homeland for 14 million Jews , where 6 million Jews live today, in order to finally live in peace.

It is without any doubt in my mind that the Arab world used Israel as a way to distract from their own problems just as the Church and tyrant leaders in Europe  used the Jews for centuries to distract people from poverty and other issues as a scapegoat-

I have read very ugly comments on my country based on a lot of ignorance and dislike of zionism

Zionism started with Jews wishing to end the cycle of killing and dying for religious reasons, in other words they were sick of being scapegoated

Unfortunately people still demand from the tiny state a high level of sticking to agreements and borders and moral values that is not kept by any other country.

Can Israel improve? anyone can and should 

however let us look again at the size of Israel, compare to the Arab lands 

and remember that Israel took in MILLIONS of jewish refugees that had survived the holocaust and previous persecution in Europe and Arab lands

It is not true that the Jews enjoyed religious freedom in Arab lands and only Israel changed that, Jews every where lived in violence as a result of antisemitism which is why zionism began NOT to occupy land of Moslems but to resettle the historical Jewish homeland

The majority of people in Israel are liberal and secular, i repeat, no one want to occupy any other people but ask yourselves why the palestinians were not taken by their Arab brothers and helped just like Israel took in jewish refugees from Arab lands and did not keep them in refugee camps

Israel's first duty is to take care of the Jewish refugees that came there during the years when jews were murdered for being jews, (religious or not)

the Palestinian people lived under Moslem rule from 1948 to 1967 when Jordan occupied the west bank and east Jerusalem . 

The PLO , the terrorist organization was founded in 1964 with every intention of destroying the Jewish state and since there was no occupation of the western bank at that time , Jordan occupied the west bank and east jerusalem one wonders

why did Jordan not create a palestinian state during all those years and why the palestinains did not ask for a state during all those years?

I have read so much hate towards Israel and i must answer that you must 

look at how BIG israel is and ask yourself if you would like to be asked to 

give up land from such a tiny piece of land, smaller than New jersey 

No one wants to control palestinians but Israelis want to live in peace AND

security and if that means defying international opinions, if that means not being liked so be it but it is very unfair to blame Israel for being immoral when Europe and the Arab world made the life in Europe and the Arab countries impossible for jews so that they had no where to go 

Asking Israel to compromise security and calling Israel fascist, racist is not only very wrong but it is not the problem 

the problem is that meanwhile many Arab lands continue to abuse the rights of human beings living there because the world is focused on scapegoating Israel 

Are the palestinians living well ? NO but what can be done?

If they recognize the right of Israel to exist and stop terror and violence 

and negotiate like Egypt and Jordan , there will be peace 

blaming israel for the reason there is war is not only not true to history 

it is plain stupid

i will now unsubscribe from this thread and this lunacy 

the only thing i learned is that there are certain people i will avoid on glocals

who seek only to fight and argue and dont really seek communication and to 

understand anything but spit out whatever media spoonfeeds them and google information and quote extremists  like chomski  instead of just looking at maps and studying history a bit.

I have been called names and why? am i a racist or are the people calling 

me a racist people who can never accept any other opinion but their own 

I listen to people but i dont value opinions of people coming from Europe 

who think the jews can just play russian roulette with their lives and criticise

Israel for wanting to survive in a very tough neighberhood- 

End of speech 

Palestine is not recognized as a country.

I think UAE is not include in middle east, btw Qatar the "cleanest" arab country is ranked 19th :)

Let's look at some exceptional reality here:

Circa 2001 - The Indian government used to be pretty generous with tourist visas back then, stamping six month, multiple-entry to almost any passport which graced their embassies. Thousands of Israelis used to descend onto Indian shores - some in search of spirituality & yoga, some freedom from life of constant war, some peace, while some'd look for all o'the above thro' - creme-de-la-creme hashish. Many among these folks were in their twenties, who'd take the next flight right after their strenuous military service.

Gradually, the number of Israelis in India increased, many tourists (incl. non Israelis) would go to Indian embassies in countries like Nepal, Thailand, Sri Lanka to get another stamp on their passports, which'd help them live in the subcontinent for the whole year.

This went on for a few years, we started having a couple of Hebrew heavens in India; where shops, restaurants & local businesses had signboards, menus etc. in Hebrew. Locals & domestic tourists complained, but not loud enough as these far-flung places had never been given an equally viable source of income by anyone else. Some setup impromptu Chabad houses to get together, while some chose to keep away from them. And well, we are used to different languages in India, how hard would it be to add another script and a God (or two) to our large database? Especially if it contributes to local economy...

This gave me the chance to travel with (cheap, for I believe it's pretty useless to do it any other way) & have many conversations with normal, down-to-earth commonfolk from Israel who, like everyone else of any religion or citizenship, hated war. They'd talk about the peace they found even in remote places of Kashmir which then, I found truly bizarre.

I've spent nights in the same hotel room with a Syrian and an Israeli making out. The only one who wanted to create war at that time was...I (only due to the lack of sleep & funds to get our own rooms). I've played with Israeli-Iranian babies, who were born in the lap of the Himalayas.

The peaceful bubble, one day had to burst. It was the Mossad, evil as usual, who announced in 2005 or 2006, (I think) - that Israeli citizens were at risk travelling in India. Israelis stopped coming in large numbers to their usual hangouts, but continued visiting anyways. No attack happened right away, but when it did in 2008, it was a massacre. It weren't only Jews who were attacked, but they sure were a prime target.

This is in a country where Jews reportedly arrived 2,500 years ago & have lived without any known anti-semitism events from the local population, despite the nation being ruled by folks of various faiths, including descendents of the Genghis Khan dynasty.

Now, if Papa Pilger - our preferred expert on Israeli combat tactics, has written anything about the above or provided similar links, please let me have them and I'd be glad to enlighten myself. I'd be surprised if he even finds reason to look for what Israelis do to find peace...for that I'm pretty sure - wouldn't bring any blog hits.

Oh yes, I almost forgot about my countrymen - they are now dealing with Russian menus & signboards and complain that at least, the Israelis spoke English, wished to explore the country & immerse themselves in our culture and Hebrew words were so much easier to understand. It ain't hard to find someone say - Those were days.

Next, thanks to the 2008 attacks - some in India look forward to some serious handshakes between hardline Hindutva forces in India & the Israeli security forces, to wipe out our own people who converted to other faiths & our evil neighbours - who used to be us, till 64 years ago when we grew tired of exchanging cattle, spices & software programs and decided to exchange humans.

One day, like the last link attempts - the presence of Israeli travellers in India WILL retroactively be equated to Mossad's presence. It'd make a great story - a spy agency, religions, illicit drugs, yoga, trance, raves, falafels, sex & rock n roll. I won't be writing it, though - further upon that spiced 'truth', I'll let Pilger & his cronies elaborate. If they haven't already, sooner or later, they will. And recreate history, which we can come back to fight about, on online forums.

A lot of the above is from my own private travel journals, embellished with my own opinions & chunks of history wherever applicable. I've provided links where I could find any supporting information, so please choose to believe at your own risk - I neither have the eyes of a journalist, nor the brain of a double-agent. For now I've only been found taking great pride in being the true symbol of riff-raff d'Annemasse. Yet for some stupid reason, I only think - I too, can see.

Here's some interesting Israel-based news - a new kid in town, called Like. I'd like to see Jenson Button call his kid Like.

Here, I end my interquel to War & Peace (& everything in between).

“If they recognize the right of Israel to exist and stop terror and violence and negotiate like Egypt and Jordan , there will be peace”

Don’t you think Israel should not also make any effort for peace?

In my opinion in the past you have been over the limits, we had a long conversation about it and we are done…

Personally I don’t blame your different point of view and to be honest before reading your former posts I was never really interested by the Middle East Conflict, so it is really a pity if you don’t continue the debate.

If you read the whole article, you will see that one of Hamas' main objectives is avoid alienating their more radical elements-- not to mention their Hezbollah allies...

One cannot seriously engage in this debate without looking at what is going on with the various factions amongst the Palestinians. 

The same goes for looking at various factions amongst the Israelis. I am against what the Netanyahu government is doing but not against the existence of an Israeli state.  

These are only two of the reasons why this debate is very complex.

None of the UN agencies should be necessary "in our civilised world today." However, they are.  I made this point to underline the fact that most Arab nations seem not to care about the plight of the Palestinians except as a "debating stick" to hit the Israelis with in international fora.

Had Arafat and Fatah not been so consistently corrupt, many Palestinian people could have benefitted much more from assistance.  This was a key factor in the rise of Hamas whose organization has been much better at delivering services to people on the ground.

This situation is not just between two parties or factions--- thissituation is a matrix of regional and international interests.  And caught in the middle are the ordinary citizens of all factions and governments.

But one question for you. 

Why shouldn't Hamas agree that Israel has the right to exist in exchange for pre-1967 borders?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5162537.ece

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704904604576333314204138294.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/21/obama-cameron-pre-1967-palestinian-borders

Obama has already "broken rank" publicly on this issue..

Meanwhile, one would hope that the European Union might actually take some useful foreign policy steps as is recommended by this statement posted on Der Spiegel's website...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,767819,00.html

"It is time for the European Union to rethink its policy in the Middle East. That is the demand being made by 24 former heads of government, foreign ministers and peace negotiators. A Hamas recognition of Israel should be the goal rather than the precondition of the peace process, the leaders write in an open letter."

"

As former international leaders and peace negotiators, we have learnt first-hand that achieving a durable peace requires an inclusive approach. We consider it of vital importance that the international community supports Palestinian unity and avoids any steps that could jeopardise the fragile reconciliation process. In particular, we urge the United States and the European Union to constructively engage with the transitional government as well as with the Palestinian leadership that results from the elections next year. This is imperative for the following reasons:

Firstly, overcoming the political and institutional divide between the West Bank and Gaza is an obvious pre-condition for the establishment of a unified and viable Palestinian state

Secondly, a durable settlement with Israel can only be achieved if the Palestinian leadership is able to negotiate on behalf of all Palestinians and with the agreement of main political forces. Reconciliation is thus a prerequisite for achieving the two-state solution. It is not an obstacle to it. Asking Fatah to choose between making peace with Hamas and making peace with Israel presents a false choice: a lasting peace with Israel is only possible if Hamas is on board."

I was beginning to wonder what kind of academic paper you were writing...

I hiiiighly recommIND INdian INglish. After all, we INvented it and contINue to reINvent it. Add...a couple of beers for extra spice. 

Star,

Pls clarify: when you say "the handsom guy from Geneva", do you mean me or do you mean Charlie? 

Shaun, 

Come on bro, it's clear to see that you, David Lawson, and the rest of them are in one (bottom) category, and me and Charlie are in another (superior) one! Arun is somewhere in the middle, depending if he's having a good or bad hair-day. 

Nir,

Accept the obvious.  Star and Felipe have become fond of each other thanks to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. 

As Christians say: ................the Lord works in misterious ways!!

:-)

Shaun:

I hit in the soft spot for both of us, I'm also of the bald tribe...

Nef:

i think you're right, and that there's a good chance Star and Felipe will end up as a couple. I'd hate to be invited to a dinner at their place tho...can you imagine the conversation?

- Felipe: "so Star my love, what do you think about the settlments?"

- Star: "I think - enter enter enter - that (fill in 2 pages here)"

- Guest 1 (David Lawson): "yes, but Pilgrim disagrees"

And so the dinner would go on until the dinner-admin blocks it. 

That is racist! I wouldn't want to lose any hair over it, though.

You've landed on the right thread, sirs. We can custom-make some spiritual healing processes, which'll all as usual, come straaaaight from God. That makes it all free for life*. Hair's our marketing video...

* We also accept Paypal. We'll send you the form you can submit to your God directly for reimbursements.

Sanity may be madness but the maddest of all is to see life as it is and not as it should be. 

~ Don Quixote, The most ferocious don known to humankind.

Oh no. We already granted Morrissey citizenship. Now, it can only get worse - we'll even assign him a caste and make it truly unbearable for anyone to breathe.

It's just you & I left, everyone else's gone. So, there can't be any God. I'll share the beers & what the heck, I'll even throw in some hair. Only one condition...no 'fierce embracing', like ever.

OK, so back to the original discussion. 

While there's posts in the forums about a ton of topics, Israel gets disproportional attention (the vast majority negative of course). Just look at the topics of the 10 hottest recent threads on the politics forum and you'll see it. it's a fact.   

Now here's my own non-confirmed theory of at least one reason why Israel gets so much attention here. It's cos to folks who are not into the exact details of the Israel conflict - which is 95% of folks - it looks like a black and white case: Israel is the bad guy who doesn't want peace. So folks get angry at the obvious bad guy, and post about how easily the bad guy could "fix" things if he wanted to. I'll explain. 

From most posts I've seen about Israel so far, the story to many people is this:
- the current conflict is all because Israel took land in 1967; and to make things worse israel now put a crazy blockade on Gaza.
- If Israel pulls back to 1967 borders, and removes the Gaza blockage, peace is there. 
- Since Israel isn't doing those things, Israel doesn't want peace. So Israel is the clear bad war-lover here.  

I've heard the above in 1 version or another many times. And I admit it: to someone who doesn't go deep, the story makes perfect sense. And if that's the story, people need to post about it cos it's so easy to fix!

But the above story is partial at best, and it doesn't consider many other very major elements in the conflict. 

So that's my theory of why Israel gets so much attention here. 

I  think Nir made several important points.  The situation is extremely complex as I have said before and there is "fault" on all sides, just as there are many sides.

As I understand it, the Obama Administration's strategy is to try to restart stalled negotiations. It seems that neither Hamas nor Netanyahu feel that the Administration's proposal -- and it is simply that -- a proposal -- is satisfactory.

This article from Der Spiegel gives some insight into how the proposal  might work.  But it is clear that Hamas must come into the tent and form some kind of coalition government with Fatah for there to be any kind of durable  two-state solution.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,764642,00.html

But two clocks are ticking: one for the September 2011 UN debate on the vote for a Palestinian nation and the other for the US 2012 presidential vote.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/white-house-waiting-for-netanyahu-to-accept-obama-s-peace-talk-principles-1.367071

Finally, this longer article quotes Tom Segev, a top Israeli historian who discusses how many Israelis don't see peace coming any time in the near future.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,765960,00.html

I agree  that there could be many more interesting discussions, particularly involving nations or regions other than the Middle East or the U.S.  Geneva is a center for commodities trading and an increasing number of hedge funds are relocating here.  Yet there seems to be little to no interest in discussing those topics not to mention banking fraud and the rest....

Yo Shaun,

This thread's thrust is why there's so much attention on Israel and not "what's the reality on the ground", so I'll just share 3 base points, below. My objective is not to say Israel does only good. My objective is to show the situation on the ground is a lot more complex that some folks believe, and that pulling back to pre-1967 borders is not a silver-bullet.

1. The Israel-Arab conflict started way before the 1967 war. Infact, it started the day Israel was founded.

2. Hamas, which rules Gaza, publicly states that Israel needs to be removed from this world. According to Hamas Israel shouldn't exist in its current borders, or in pre 1967 borders, or in any borders.

3. If Israel pulls back to pre-1967 borders, it means Hamas - which states it wants to destroy Israel - sits 8 km from Tel Aviv. Imagine the analogy: country X says "GVA needs to be destroyed in any case". And then some guys on the forum suggest to GVA to let country X move into Nyon...Sounds like suicide, no?

Again, my objective is not to say Israel does only good, cos that's not the case. My objective is to show the situation on the ground is a lot more complex that some folks believe, and that just pulling back to 1967 borders - without other fundamental changes happening - is not a solution. 

Nir

By the way Shaun, if you want to see - right from the horse's mouth - what Hamas says of Israel, read this:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/hamas-obama-will-fail-in-forcing-us-to-recognize-israel-1.363393

And Hamas probably would not have had such success in coming to power had  Arafat not been so corrupt and spent more money on his fellow Palestinians.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hWzpSGG2Jdtmvmb6KPdl6cHnY6TQ?docId=e2472ca95ed94b95a4b503da6442bf35

Of course, some of that money ended up here in Switzerland...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/1446309/Arafat-diverted-300m-of-public-money-to-Swiss-bank-account.html

Trans: just like all roads lead to rome, so does all money lead to CH eventually...(-:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13713787

BBC News: "Star Trek's Mr. Spock Urges Two-State Solution"

David R:

So what if Ben Gurion said that in 1938? I can bring you a ton of counter quotes from prominent Israel and Arab leaders, all from 2011. But all these quotes do nothing to help create a discussion here about a possible way forward.  

It's clear you think Israel is the absolute bad guy here (as others on the forums think israel can do no wrong). That's your right. But just posting "Israel is bad" in different ways all over the forums gets the discussion no where... 

Nir

"Before Israel dies, it must be humiliated and degraded. Allah willing, before they die, they will experience humiliation and degradation every day."
-Dr. Mahmud Al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, Washington Times, February 4, 2006

"Neither the liberation of the Gaza Strip nor the liberation of the West Bank or even Jerusalem will suffice us. Hamas will pursue the armed struggle until the liberation of all our lands. We don't recognize the state of Israel or its right to hold onto one inch of Palestine. Palestine is an Islamic land belonging to all the Muslims."
-Dr. Mahmud al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, The Jerusalem Post, August 18, 2005

"Tomorrow, our nation will sit on the throne of the world. This is not a figment of the imagination, but a fact. Tomorrow we will lead the world, Allah willing."
-Khalid al-Mish'al, leader of Hamas, Al-Jazeera TV, February 3, 2006

"She [Hamas suicide bomber Re'em Al-Riyashi] is not going to be the last because the march of resistance will continue until the Islamic flag is raised, not only over the minarets of Jerusalem, but over the whole universe."
-Dr. Mahmud Al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, Associated Press, January 15, 2004

"To hell with you all."
-Khalid al-Mish'al, leader of Hamas, speaking about German Chancellor Merkel's call for Hamas to recognize Israel, Al-Jazeera TV, February 3, 2006

In my opinion, it's a great place. I have met some very interesting people and exchanged views with them during these debates. Not everyone believes this is a "black and white" issue; most political questions and situations involve much more nuance than that.

translator is right.  i'd rather have the chance to talk about anything i want than feel there are taboo areas to be minced around all the time. 

perhaps one reason israel features in so many threads is precisely because forums like glocals operate as a kind of pressure valve for a lot of repressed emotion in our society about a situation that is not considered polite and civil conversation.

the topic of israel can be quite a taboo subject for many people and glocals is an unusually open place which allows people to express themselves freely without worrying about whether or not policeman is going to shoot them in the face for having an opinion. so again, perhaps israel is such a big topic because 1. a lot of folks worry about the people who live in that part of the world. 2. this interest in israel/palestine and desire to learn and talk about it is repressed (and thus made stronger) by a fear of being branded a hater of arabs or a hater of jewish people (both fairly awful things to be accused of...)

unfortunately there are a minority of people on this site who are just plain rude and say horrible things. but i'm proud to be part of a community where decent people like ariel and david r can appear on the same thread and we all manage to recognise each others right to be treated with basic human respect. go team!

At the risk of sounding combative but not meaning even a bit of it - I see a certain irony in your post, about same people saying the same stuff. If I were to do a keyword search on "Palestine is still the issue - John Pilger" on glocals.com...I may find it in - serif, sans serif, italics, bold italics, comic sans...

Same people are saying the same stuff and the same people are thanking them for it - I agree. But I have utmost respect for them as to me, they help understand how ad nauseum propaganda works on some of us. And to such an extent that - we take to believing that it'd work on everyone, everywhere. Yet, many different other people are saying a lot of other contra-distinct stuff which is far from boring. It depends on how & from where one looks at it. 

You're right, it's futile...but only if we've already made up our minds that it's already black or white, while none of us, nor our opinions are either carbon or lily coloured. Some of us even call ourselves so, thanks to colourblind ancestors, may peace be upon them.

I think this brings us closer, if done with the right intentions. How? I explain -

We're all from different parts of the world, currently living in & around this neutral country. We bring with us certain hypocrisies that we don't even realize exist within us. In this changing world, there's information thrown at us from like a hundred-thousand angles. Plus there's history from like a few thousand years, no less...let's mix some different perceptions each one of us have - of different elements that we collectively call history. Let's add cultural conditioning, jingoism, cronyism and a few more isms that each one subscribes to, on each subject that makes and most importantly, doesn't make it to int'l news arena.

Then, today, a lot of the opinions we form are from quotes, tweets & headlines from similar if not, the exact same sources. 

Where else would we get such a mixed bag of people, from different walks of life who'd, through their political & other info coupled with opinions, help us look at some different, sometimes unheard of sources? Perhaps eventually, help us understand our own hypocrisies? However, those who come here believing they're never prone to doublespeak I guess, should stay away from this political underbelly. For if one enters here, it's hard to go back thinking, I am as right as I always used to be and will always be. 

Also, why not? Do we fear of being attacked in some way because we posted some mindless political/other junk on Glocals.com? 

If we do, let's go back to the Geneva is Boring thread and add another post cribbing how, no one talks about stuff that's important. As far as I know, politics has never been for the fainthearted, politically incorrect folks.

I hope you disagree, for I am a hypocrite; it's just that I don't know it yet. If you don't disagree, I'll still remain one - but it's ok, if you ever come across a post of mine that displays sanctimoniousness, I'd be truly grateful if you point it out to me. 

David R, I believe the world needs all kind of people, poets, thinkers, plumbers, engineers, cooks.......and a few (but only a few) bullies to keep awake our animal instints, ggggggggggggggggg

Nir,

I would like to add to your point 1 that the Israel-Arab conflict started with The Balfour Declaration on November 2, 1917 and the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine.

I fully agree that the situation on the ground is extremely complex and that "pulling back to 1967 borders" means very little today.

Nir, 

Unless you haven't already noticed this whole thread is going nowhere - which, without being a rocket scientist, we all knew it would - especially Ariel who posted it in the first place!

But to stay on topic (as I'd hate to stray) Yes I care about a lot of other issues and couldn't give a flying f--k about Gaza, Israel or the whole shooting match to be honest. Question answered.

What I would agree with is David's point that this site SHOULD be for bringing people together not this point which we knew would only serve to get people angry with each other which seems contrary to the whole point of setting up Glocals in the first place. Unless I'm wrong? Maybe you can correct me on that.

Rich, David R,

It's true that a lot of the Political discussions here quickly escalate to personal insults, and that glocals.com is all about doing real activities with real people and not about being-the-PC theoretical debate.

As stated before, we're trying different things with the Politics topics. We 1st had them as a regular forum, then we banned them for a while, and now we have a special Politics forum which doesn't show up on the front page (in contrast to other forums) so that the bad vibes stay confined only to those who actively go seek them out. We're still not sure how to continue with political topics, on vera.

Nir

Rich,

Nobody is forcing you to stay on this thread if you don't like it and unless the Administrator decides to shut it down it will remain open for people to view their opinions.

I cannot only speak for myself but I am certainly not angry at all with anybody on this forum and I am learning a lot about other people's sensibilities, fears and perceptions of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. 

David Tile,

You could have quoted Arab leaders that were contemporary to David Ben Gurion and it might have been interesting for the debate?  

Breshna,

I will not provide more links or book title to try to justify something that is already stated in the muslim hadiths, please check them if you need to see for yourself.  Additionally, I would be grateful if you could stop insinuating that I am ignorant or that I insult Islam/muslims, this is getting tedious now. I do not pretend to know everything but for your information I studied Islam at university and have read several books on the subject since then. 

Many people think Muhammad was a great man and many others think differently and may also say so, this is their right.

Regards,

Sarah

Comedy cures alot more than guns.....

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1588038,00.html

Lighten up guys.

And here is my contribution......

Charlie: You're a racist, because you said the Jew was fat and little! Everyone knows that only palestinians are fat and little! OK, I jest...good to see a joke here, even if the end of it was easy to see a mile away...(-;

mate, it was the most equally sided joke i could find...

h

what debate?  All I see is people with too little knowledge and too many biases copying sentiments from sources that fit their agendas.
It hurts me to agree with someone like David but I too think that a politics forum is a bad idea.  G locals should bring people together not divide them by helping them showcase their ignorance and racism

And for the record - I am not pro Israel or anti Palestine.  I am pro knowledge and discussion and anti people thinking they know everything because they read it, and it was written by someone who 'has lived in the middle east and so knows what hes talking about'

Hi folks,

I'm not going to venture into this 'debate' but I would like to add a comment about the politics forum since it keeps coming up.

The current format of the politics format is an experiment on our part and we're taking some time to see how it goes.

If we see that this forum encourages open debates between people who want to learn / hear other opinions, we'll probably keep it open.  If we see that it just creates fights and antagonism we'll probably get rid of it.

So please – before posting on this forum, take a second to think about what you're posting and why, and about whether the stuff you're posting is the same stuff you'd say if you were discussing politics at a bar with a stranger.

Thanks

Oded

Hi David Tile,

We agree on that one, what debate?  That is why I had put a question mark at the end of my sentence.

I do not thking we are doing so bad when it comes to exchanging views though. You had not expressed yourself until now (apart from the quotes as far as I recall) and now you are agreeing with David (even if it hurts) on the idea that political forums are a bad idea for Glocals.

Now David,.........not divide them by helping them showcase their ignorance and racism, that is really mean!!!!!  bad boy!!!

For the record, I am pro Israel and pro Palestine and I am going to have a glass of champagne to celebrate the fact that many people feel the same way.

So long!!!

And let's say, for the sake of argument, that this bar is located somewhere in the Middle East... 

I think we are all adults and we all know what we can say and what we cannot say and if some don’t know how to behave the moderators are here for this.

It is always nice to share different point of view. I learnt a lot from people who have different points than me, besides I met great people in the different politic treads.

I just hope the moderators will be as much as possible enough neutral in the different politics tread to treat everyone the same and don’t give privileges to the people who share the same views.

CLARIFICATIONS DUE : 

I have stopped posting because the site manager indeed does not treat everyone the same so while Felipe got to post a thread calling to ban me, i got a phone call telling me / asking me to stop posting because there have been complaints about me, so just so you know i think i was the only one who was told to stop posting which just shows you that actually if anyone was being singled out and cast out, it is I.

Second of all and important to point out 

"that handome guy from Geneva" is Felipe without any sort of competition whatsoever..have no doubt about that

As for the theory of a theoratical partnership there are other reasons besides political divides 

I actually appreciate Felipe's great spirit and passion just would like to see it put to use in other fields of life, but not with me, as i have other fish to fry at the moment

I wish you a good night 

and would like to add that the Arab Israel conflict did not begin in 1948 as Nir said but way before that, the Jewish and Arab population clashed long before that and the cooperation of the mufti of Jerusalem with the Nazi regime was way before 1948 and the pogroms against Jews in Hebren and Jaffa were way before 1948 

The problem is one of tolerance, and the film "Earth " by Deepa Mehta is a great film about how people clashed  in India in 1947 around the time the British empire divided India into India and Pakistan, causing violence and blood shed, 

nationalism has its price and i personally have learned a lot from this discussion and have given much thought to how different people view the situation ,i see the situation as deriving very clearly from the mistake the British made in dividing the land the way they did and by allow the Arab population to dictate to it a lot of its decisions, 

I see the Jews also being blamed for not sticking to border but i think it is a fact that Jordan occupied illegally the west bank and east Jerusalem from 1948 till 1967 and still there was not one word about establishing Palestine.

I regret that many people have very unrealistic expectations of a Palestinian state, i wish very much to emphasis the need for both sides to tolerate eachother just as we must tolerate posts by people we do not agree with and just as the people who run this site should appreciate the time and effort that go into answering the mad masses that took over previous posts about Israel 

After all let us not forget this is a business run by business people just like Facebook makes money from each and every member , and so perhaps a good idea is to meet on a bench somewhere and discuss politics face to face

i suspect the anger will then not be as great and soon everyone will be grilling and grinning 

Namaste 

You see guys, the moderator is no one's friend...(-: Star thinks we let Felipe get away with too much and we go harder on her, Felipe thinks Star gets better treatment than him, etc. 

Anyway, I suspended Star's account for a while. Not because of her latest post, but because we received several complaints about her over the past 2 weeks from several people. She was asked and agreed several times to stay away from the Political forum for a while. But she can't stay away, so she's on "forced vacation" for a while. 

PS: regardless of what Star says, I'm still sure that I am the handsome guy from Geneva!

Nir

In my opinion political forum should be banned on Glocals.

Here you are..

.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni

"As a passionate antisemite[3] al-Husayni encouraged his followers to "kill theJews wherever you find them".[4] During World War II, he collaborated with theNazis[5] and, in 1941, met the Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler in Germany.[6] He asked Hitler to back Arab independence and requested that Nazi Germany oppose the establishment in Palestine of a Jewish national home as part of the Pan-Arab struggle.[7] According to an American report, al-Husayni energetically recruited Muslims for the Waffen-SS, the Nazi Party's elite military command. He was promised the leadership of Palestine after German troops had driven out the British and exterminated the Jews living there.[8] This would have meant the deaths of over 350,000 people. At the end of the war, he was allowed to flee to Syria as part of an attempt to prevent the alienation of Middle Eastern regimes.[8]"

I know some people object to wikipedia. So, here's a reference from the US Holocaust Museum.

 http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007667

The point is, yes, there were some "leaders" contemporary to D.B.G. who preached hate...there is enough to go around on all sides...

I quite like the political forums and I think it would be a great shame if glocals members never had the chance to comment upon the world around them.

“Felipe got to post a thread calling to ban me”

I posted a thread because I was shocked by some of your posts. I really like to talk about politic, however as I said in my opinion you were over the limit. Besides I was also thinking the moderators didn’t take enough any actions to avoid this kind of post.

“I actually appreciate Felipe's great spirit and passion just would like to see it put to use in other fields of life, but not with me, as i have other fish to fry at the moment”

I like to fight for my conviction; I was fighting against your posts but not your person.

“i got a phone call telling me / asking me to stop posting because there have been complaints about me”

I am pretty sure if I was in your situation I would not have got a phone call

Btw thank you for the nickname "handome guy from Geneva" I really like it

“Felipe thinks Star gets better treatment than him”

Indeed I was thinking she had more privileges than me.

Hey Medicis: No offense. Great to hear you have one, like many others who use this space for read-only purposes and wait to throw concluding judgments when required.

We respect & welcome everyone's opinions here; but if you could elaborate on why, it'd help some idiots like me tie bizarre elements called logic to your contribution.

Well, David, have the members finally stopped posting yet?

You owe me a piece of information, you know, and that's what I'd like.

An ad in the national edition of the Times and in the International
Herald-Tribune on the first of any month will be fine. Better put it in the
Tribune de Genève as well.

I won't be surprised if the answer is yes and no. The posters will stop for now.
But, David, you judge yourself with all the mercy of site admin; you'll have to
earn it again and again, the blessed silence. Because it's the threads that
drive you, seeing the various plights in the Politics forum, which will not end, ever.

I have no plans to call on you, David, the site being a more interesting with
you in it. Be sure you extend me the same courtesy.

Yours,

Dick Lecter M.D.

(That's how you properly plagairise Thomas Harris!!!!)

FYI News Update:

Benjamin Netanyahu is hoping to convince at least 30 countries to vote against recognising a Palestinian state should the United Nations debate the issue in September.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-unilateral-declaration-of-palestinian-state-will-create-negotiation-impasse-1.367821

Besides the Israeli actress Natalie Portman gives birth to baby boy and he is half french

Leon is one of my favorite movie !

Hey Aron,

I sent you request for a chat but, you didn't accept.

You have pm 

Voila. Now I have more reason to blame glocals chat which doesn't work for me even when ladies of this site want to get in touch with me - I suspect it's the CIA's handiwork.

I saw your message & I'll send you a reply, I promise. My comprehension & vocal chords in French though are like those of Idifix, so you may have to exercise a great deal of patience. 

To complete my original post:

The Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu serves also as the Chairman of the Likud Party, which is the major right-wing political party in Israel. The equivalent in France would be Le Front National, The British National Party in UK and UDC in Switzerland.

In the “Peace and Security” chapter of the Likud Party platform, a recent document (1999) it says about :

The settlements:

“The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.”

Hard to have a two-state solution.

On Palestinian self-rule it says:

“The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs”

Hard to see a Palestinian sovereign state.

On Jerusalem:

“Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem, including the plan to divide the city presented to the Knesset by the Arab factions and supported by many members of Labor and Meretz.”

Hard to see east Jerusalem as capital of a future Palestinian.

It looks like that the Likud party charter does not recognize Palestine and will not accept a sovereign Palestinian state.

Regarding the Hamas charter you understand I prefer to do not comment as we all know what it is based on.

instead of a private chat, I think it would be more beneficial to post something on the tread, in order to understand you point of view

Receiving a phone call to stop posting, it is a privilege  

It just confirmes what I thought...

17 June 2011: Jerusalem rabbis 'condemn dog to death by stoning'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13819764

Please feel free to comment...

1 example of death by stoning,in Iran, just few months ago her name was Sakineh Mohammadi

she was 43 years old when she was killed by stoning...

Elisabeth Badinter condemns it, if in France the death penalty is bolished is due to her husband a french lawyer Robert Badinter...

Thank you to bringing the Sakineh story on the tread; it is very sad story, I blame all extremist shameful countries who is able to make this kind of atrocities!!!

Btw according to Amnest International Report published last month on 13th May 2011, it said she has not been executed, thanks to the global attention her sentence was under review.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/POL10/001/2011/en/519da037-1492-4620-9ed5-cac8f1cfd591/pol100012011en.pdf

She may not face death by stoning, according to the Iranian authorities. There is still hope.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/02/sakineh-mohammadi-ashtiani-iran-sentence

No offense in the future could you please check your source before to post them? It avoids spreading misinformation besides it gave the impression you are limited on general knowledge and I bet you are not.

I posted an article about a dog sentenced to death by stoning in Israel, because the tread title is names “Israel”. In my opinion before to post something worst from my article, we should first blame the sentence cos it gave the idea after all is not so bad.

Cheers,

Felipe

Shaun you're right, in this pic it's not Sakineh, you're right she remains in jail waiting for 99 boosts.

In this pic is Vali Janfeshani or Sariyer Ebadi they were 2....

I wanted to post few cases of death by stoning in the world, specially the case of Doaa Khalil Assauad killed by death stoning in Irak in april 2007, she was 17 years old.... I couldn't post the picture of her death...

I meant, we are in the 21 th century not in the Middle ages, but  we still see cases of death by stoning !

WHY ?!

Thanks,

Medicis

"WHY?!" I think the international community don't punish enought these extremist regimes!!!

It can be a great topic for a new tread.

By the way this thread is so boring ...

@ Shaun feel free to post here my private message !

As you know we are in Democracy, So i have the right to express my opinion, i don't need any approval to stay or live this forum...

90 % of political threads are on ww1-ww2 AND guess what ? ISRAEL, so yes, this thread is going round in circles and boring.

@ Breshna looks like ?! it just means one of the first politician to talk bout this case WAS Elisabeth Badinter, i just introduced her, because every one knows who is her husband.

Yes boring... as i wrote we are turning in circles, because little girls are dies because they was borned GIRLS... there's so much subjects to talk about !

But i really appreciate if you could tell me more about your story. 

@ Shaun are you serious ?! 

Hahaha Shaun my question was cynical !

I repeat most, i meant 90 % of politics forums on Glocals are or was on ww 1, ww2 or Israel...any other checks, Shaun ?

Yes, apparently we went out of topic ,

just 1 question Shaun how many Political forums Glocals have ? 

.............so young and already cynical!!

maybe you should check your history books, you seem to be a bit confused about WW1, WW2 and Israel.

I deleted a couple of replies cause they were out of line.

Let's keep this semi-civil and try to stay somewhat on topic.

Oded

Um, who says sharia law is acceptable to the US?  On what basis do you make such a patently ridiculous claim?

"In the United States, these religious laws have no legally binding effect on U.S. citizens because religious laws cannot be adopted by federal, state, or local governments under the First Amendment."          ...

"Foreign law generally references the law of other countries and is not binding on U.S. courts. It is distinguishable from international law, which generally refers to agreements between nations and laws of international bodies. International law may be legally binding (regardless of state attempts to restrict its consideration) in the United States if it has been properly adopted by the federal government pursuant to constitutional authority to conduct foreign affairs."

"Application of Religious Law in U.S. Courts: Selected Legal Issues"

US Congressional Research Service, May 18, 2011

 http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R41824.pdf

In addition, for US government views on human rights in Iran, see:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2010/nea/154461.htm