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Israel vs. Gaza, take 2

„There's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders “.  Obama in Bangkok, aping Israel’s line justifying the current bombing campaign in Gaza.


On the face of it, it’s unarguable.  Launching rockets into civilian areas by certain Palestinian factions are inexcusable acts of desperation, and clearly against all international law.


But the facts are infinitely more complex than that.  The current conflict began escalating after a targeted assassination of a Palestinian public official inside the Gaza strip. This also is against all international law.  


It seems just as unarguable that it doesn’t serve Israel’s interest or image to put itself on the same level as the “terrorists” who are attacking it, and then better them at their own game.  With its overwhelming superiority in numbers, firepower and technology, it is able to rain down bombs and missiles in a much more efficient manner.  As of this morning, Israel’s “surgical” strikes have killed 91, in the majority civilians including women and children, compared to 3 casualties on the Israeli side. (Note: The results of the 2008-9 incursion were 1,417 Palestinian against 13 Israeli deaths, 4 from friendly fire. It was also roundly judged by the international community and a UN report as violating laws governing distinction and proportionality, as well as having committed war crimes).


Ironically, in a country where David’s victory against Goliath is invoked to bolster the validity of Judaism as well as its heroic underdog image, the sad paradox of Israel taking on the role of the evil Goliath seems to be lost.


Netanyahu has decided to once again bomb the Palestinians into submission.  Instead, he is continuing to push them towards more violence and retaliation by engendering even more hatred.  All of this compounded by inflicting some of the most desperate living conditions imaginable on the residents of Gaza, which has effectively been transformed from a refugee camp into an internment camp.  


As Einstein so famously noted, “Insanity is repeating the same mistake and expecting different results".  Which might explain a lot.  Could a normal person accept the responsibility for so many civilian deaths, including whole families, and not hesitate long enough to ask themselves a few questions?

The text you are quoting:

„There's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders “.  Obama in Bangkok, aping Israel’s line justifying the current bombing campaign in Gaza.


On the face of it, it’s unarguable.  Launching rockets into civilian areas by certain Palestinian factions are inexcusable acts of desperation, and clearly against all international law.


But the facts are infinitely more complex than that.  The current conflict began escalating after a targeted assassination of a Palestinian public official inside the Gaza strip. This also is against all international law.  


It seems just as unarguable that it doesn’t serve Israel’s interest or image to put itself on the same level as the “terrorists” who are attacking it, and then better them at their own game.  With its overwhelming superiority in numbers, firepower and technology, it is able to rain down bombs and missiles in a much more efficient manner.  As of this morning, Israel’s “surgical” strikes have killed 91, in the majority civilians including women and children, compared to 3 casualties on the Israeli side. (Note: The results of the 2008-9 incursion were 1,417 Palestinian against 13 Israeli deaths, 4 from friendly fire. It was also roundly judged by the international community and a UN report as violating laws governing distinction and proportionality, as well as having committed war crimes).


Ironically, in a country where David’s victory against Goliath is invoked to bolster the validity of Judaism as well as its heroic underdog image, the sad paradox of Israel taking on the role of the evil Goliath seems to be lost.


Netanyahu has decided to once again bomb the Palestinians into submission.  Instead, he is continuing to push them towards more violence and retaliation by engendering even more hatred.  All of this compounded by inflicting some of the most desperate living conditions imaginable on the residents of Gaza, which has effectively been transformed from a refugee camp into an internment camp.  


As Einstein so famously noted, “Insanity is repeating the same mistake and expecting different results".  Which might explain a lot.  Could a normal person accept the responsibility for so many civilian deaths, including whole families, and not hesitate long enough to ask themselves a few questions?


TonyterritetNov 19, 2012 @ 15:39
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Re: Israel vs. Gaza, take 2
Post 1

A simple, naive, but genuine question: what's prevents them to develop into a prosperous society instead of settling for so little?

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A simple, naive, but genuine question: what's prevents them to develop into a prosperous society instead of settling for so little?


Casuistik, Nov 19, 2012 @ 16:00
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Post 2

Hi Casuistik, Your question would need an enormous amount of time and electrons to answer fully. The short answer is that in 1948 the Palestinians were pushed off their land by an Israeli offensive.  They were 'diasporized' into neighboring countries, ending up in overcrowded and squalid refugee camps, where the 4th generation are still waiting for some kind of justice/resolution. Some of the displaced Palestinians ended up in the West Bank, and some in a very small swath of land called Gaza to the south of the new State of Israel.  64 years on, the Gaza strip is the most overcrowded place on Earth, and has suffered either under Israeli military occupation or blockade, resulting in widespread poverty, unemployment, appaling medical services, and an Israeli designed diet to give them just enough calories per day not to starve.


Believe me, they are not "settling" for the present situation. The Israeli policies towards them have pushed them further and further into desperation, and desperate acts.  If Israel truly wanted peace, they would allow the Palestinians to develop.  The true reasons why they don't are known only to themselves.

The text you are quoting:

Hi Casuistik, Your question would need an enormous amount of time and electrons to answer fully. The short answer is that in 1948 the Palestinians were pushed off their land by an Israeli offensive.  They were 'diasporized' into neighboring countries, ending up in overcrowded and squalid refugee camps, where the 4th generation are still waiting for some kind of justice/resolution. Some of the displaced Palestinians ended up in the West Bank, and some in a very small swath of land called Gaza to the south of the new State of Israel.  64 years on, the Gaza strip is the most overcrowded place on Earth, and has suffered either under Israeli military occupation or blockade, resulting in widespread poverty, unemployment, appaling medical services, and an Israeli designed diet to give them just enough calories per day not to starve.


Believe me, they are not "settling" for the present situation. The Israeli policies towards them have pushed them further and further into desperation, and desperate acts.  If Israel truly wanted peace, they would allow the Palestinians to develop.  The true reasons why they don't are known only to themselves.


Tonyterritet, Nov 19, 2012 @ 17:07
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Post 3

Thanks for your reply. Sorry about that (my question was too general), but I'm well (well, as much as anyone can be by reading a bit) aware of the historic backround. Btw, funny that you forgot to mention that this "Israeli offensive" was part of a war started by Arab nations and Palestinians against Israel, trying to deny its right to exist...


My question was related to Gaza under Hamas. Not the West bank, because this is complicated. however, Gaza's case is quite simple...Israel left the strip in 2005, and evacuated by force the jewish settlers with no intention to come back. Gazouis had a peculiar way to say thanks, since they elected Hamas a few years later, Hamas, which raison d'être is to destroy Israel. (Have you read their charter?), hence the blockade. Can you blame Israel for not wanting Hamas terrorists to blow up themselves in Tel Aviv bars or Jerusalem buses? I don't.


So that's one thing... but much more importantly: Egypt shares a border with Gaza; so either there is no effective blockade and the notion of "internment camp" is mere propaganda or Egypt is part of the blockade... But then... why are the qassams only flying into Israel and not Egypt?


So again, what do Hamas want? Except import/build more rockets...


One more thing:


But the facts are infinitely more complex than that.  The current conflict began escalating after a targeted assassination of a Palestinian public official inside the Gaza strip. This also is against all international law. 


Sorry, he was the commander of Hamas military wing...

The text you are quoting:

Thanks for your reply. Sorry about that (my question was too general), but I'm well (well, as much as anyone can be by reading a bit) aware of the historic backround. Btw, funny that you forgot to mention that this "Israeli offensive" was part of a war started by Arab nations and Palestinians against Israel, trying to deny its right to exist...


My question was related to Gaza under Hamas. Not the West bank, because this is complicated. however, Gaza's case is quite simple...Israel left the strip in 2005, and evacuated by force the jewish settlers with no intention to come back. Gazouis had a peculiar way to say thanks, since they elected Hamas a few years later, Hamas, which raison d'être is to destroy Israel. (Have you read their charter?), hence the blockade. Can you blame Israel for not wanting Hamas terrorists to blow up themselves in Tel Aviv bars or Jerusalem buses? I don't.


So that's one thing... but much more importantly: Egypt shares a border with Gaza; so either there is no effective blockade and the notion of "internment camp" is mere propaganda or Egypt is part of the blockade... But then... why are the qassams only flying into Israel and not Egypt?


So again, what do Hamas want? Except import/build more rockets...


One more thing:


But the facts are infinitely more complex than that.  The current conflict began escalating after a targeted assassination of a Palestinian public official inside the Gaza strip. This also is against all international law. 


Sorry, he was the commander of Hamas military wing...


Casuistik, Nov 19, 2012 @ 18:14
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Post 4

And a few funny facts...


MAYBE THE TURKISH FLOTILLAS ARE GOING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION?


In Turkey, life expectancy is 72.23 and infant mortality is 24.84 per 1,000 births.


In Gaza, life expectancy is 73.68 and infant mortality is 17.71 per 1,000 births.


Turkey has a literacy rate of 88.7% while in Gaza it is 91.9%. (It is much lower in Egypt and other Arab countries where Israel did not establish colleges and universities in the 1970s and 1980s.)


Gaza’s GDP is not as high as Turkey’s but it is higher than some other places in the Arab world, and it is much, much higher than most of Africa that gets 1,000th of the aid per capita that Gaza gets from the West.


(Source for above info: CIA World Factbook)


World hunger organizations report that 10-15 million children below the age of 5 die each year, and 50,000 people die daily. One-third of all deaths in the world are due to poverty.


While famine kills millions of children in Africa, India, and elsewhere, life expectancy for Gaza Arabs, at 72 years, is nearly five years higher than the world average. In Swaziland, for example, life expectancy is less than 40 years, and it is 42 years in Zambia.


Meanwhile Western governments, misled by Western media, continue to pour more and more money into Gaza for people that don’t need it, while allowing black Africans to starve to death.


As the correspondent for one of Japan’s biggest newspapers said  “Gaza and the West Bank are the only places in the world where I have seen refugees drive Mercedes.”


And a few pics of Gaza markets where famine reigns...


 


 


 









The text you are quoting:

And a few funny facts...


MAYBE THE TURKISH FLOTILLAS ARE GOING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION?


In Turkey, life expectancy is 72.23 and infant mortality is 24.84 per 1,000 births.


In Gaza, life expectancy is 73.68 and infant mortality is 17.71 per 1,000 births.


Turkey has a literacy rate of 88.7% while in Gaza it is 91.9%. (It is much lower in Egypt and other Arab countries where Israel did not establish colleges and universities in the 1970s and 1980s.)


Gaza’s GDP is not as high as Turkey’s but it is higher than some other places in the Arab world, and it is much, much higher than most of Africa that gets 1,000th of the aid per capita that Gaza gets from the West.


(Source for above info: CIA World Factbook)


World hunger organizations report that 10-15 million children below the age of 5 die each year, and 50,000 people die daily. One-third of all deaths in the world are due to poverty.


While famine kills millions of children in Africa, India, and elsewhere, life expectancy for Gaza Arabs, at 72 years, is nearly five years higher than the world average. In Swaziland, for example, life expectancy is less than 40 years, and it is 42 years in Zambia.


Meanwhile Western governments, misled by Western media, continue to pour more and more money into Gaza for people that don’t need it, while allowing black Africans to starve to death.


As the correspondent for one of Japan’s biggest newspapers said  “Gaza and the West Bank are the only places in the world where I have seen refugees drive Mercedes.”


And a few pics of Gaza markets where famine reigns...


 


 


 


Casuistik, Nov 19, 2012 @ 20:21
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Post 5

Just some back ground information that is relatively uncolored .. just have a look at this. It made me think when I saw this.


 

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Just some back ground information that is relatively uncolored .. just have a look at this. It made me think when I saw this.


 


smile2sandro, Nov 20, 2012 @ 09:33
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Re: Israel vs. Gaza, take 2
Post 6

Hello again Casuistik,


Your reply is anything but simple or naive.  Well argued. I think the point that I have been trying to make is not to score debate points or convince anyone of the righteousness of one side against another, but more to expose the raionale that one cannot relieve hatred and violence with more hatred and violence. Since Israel and Israelis are seen to be more civilized and educated, one would expect them to be somewhat above those who they characterize as terrorists. I'm quite on the side of these Gaza youths, who have just published this surprising manifesto: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/02/free-gaza-youth-manifesto-palestinian?fb=optOut


All the best to you,


Tony

The text you are quoting:

Hello again Casuistik,


Your reply is anything but simple or naive.  Well argued. I think the point that I have been trying to make is not to score debate points or convince anyone of the righteousness of one side against another, but more to expose the raionale that one cannot relieve hatred and violence with more hatred and violence. Since Israel and Israelis are seen to be more civilized and educated, one would expect them to be somewhat above those who they characterize as terrorists. I'm quite on the side of these Gaza youths, who have just published this surprising manifesto: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/02/free-gaza-youth-manifesto-palestinian?fb=optOut


All the best to you,


Tony


Tonyterritet, Nov 20, 2012 @ 12:48
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Post 7

Thanks for this really well-made explanation film.  But my head is swimming, and I think I'm more confused than ever!  Reality is rarely simple and easy to understand.  I'm still working on string theory...

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Thanks for this really well-made explanation film.  But my head is swimming, and I think I'm more confused than ever!  Reality is rarely simple and easy to understand.  I'm still working on string theory...


Tonyterritet, Nov 20, 2012 @ 13:01
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Re: Israel vs. Gaza, take 2
Post 8

Tony,


Thanks for the link. Although I wouldn't share in every aspect their analysis, I cannot - of course - argue about the way they feel. And I'm humbled by their courage. They remind me of the members of the weisse Rose (some heroes of mine)...


 


 

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Tony,


Thanks for the link. Although I wouldn't share in every aspect their analysis, I cannot - of course - argue about the way they feel. And I'm humbled by their courage. They remind me of the members of the weisse Rose (some heroes of mine)...


 


 


Casuistik, Nov 21, 2012 @ 01:16
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Post 9

http://vimeo.com/50531435


 

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http://vimeo.com/50531435


 


smile2sandro, Nov 21, 2012 @ 08:10
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Re: Israel vs. Gaza, take 2
Post 10

This from an Israeli living in Tel Aviv:


"I wear many hats. I’m a dad, a videographer, a Jewish Israeli, a veteran. But I’m telling you my story, and asking you to forward this email and ask your friends to sign this letter to President Obama about US military aid to Israel, as a human being, as a citizen of the world, and as someone who deeply cares about the people in Israel and Gaza.


My wife, kids and I live just on the outskirts of Tel Aviv, Israel, where life during the past weeks for the most part carried on as normal. 


There were four sirens in the eight days of the Israeli operation, which means we had to move into a room in the house that has reinforced concrete walls. In our case, we went down to our apartment building’s bomb shelter for 10 minutes—as far as I know every apartment building in Israel has one. Fortunately, the kids took it well and were not scared.


In the south close to the border with Gaza where I’ve been working, life is much, much different.  People who could do so temporarily moved northward and stayed with family and friends out of rocket and mortar range.


Being outdoors when the siren goes off in the south is quite scary. Most rockets are relatively small, up to 12 pounds of explosives, and cannot bring down a building. But in the open space they splatter lots of metal fragments.


The bigger long distance rockets that were fired at lower intervals were the "Fajar" Rockets that carry 90 lbs of explosives. They cannot bring down a building but can destroy an apartment and killed 3 people in an apartment building. People in bomb shelters are considered to be safe.


And of course, the Iron Dome defense system reportedly destroyed 85% of rockets headed towards Israeli populated areas.


Still, in the south, the sirens went off many times a day and there was no school and no work because parents naturally wanted to be near their kids.


In contrast, in Gaza, the bombs dropped by the Israeli military ranged from 500 to 1,000 pounds, and in the past, also 2,000 pounds.  Ten or 20 times more powerful than those which they have sent our way.


When I’d go to our bomb shelter with my family, I would think of families like mine in Gaza. They had no sirens, no Iron Dome defense, no shelters, and because they are essentially trapped, nowhere to go.


But mostly, I thought about how terrified I'd be during the bombings.


There is no safe place to go in Gaza.


It wouldn’t matter if buildings had shelters since the Israeli bombs often flatten the building they hit. There's literally nothing left.  


I want you to ask your friends to sign this letter to President Obama asking him to make aid to Israel contingent on not using it to target civilians because there is no military solution. Not for Palestinians. Not for us Israelis.


To reach a true peace for all of us, Israeli and Palestinian, our governments must choose diplomacy over more bombing. The Israeli government must end its terrible siege of the Palestinians.


And the US must stop sending my government weapons they know will be used to violate the law and harm civilians.


I am happy we've reached a cease-fire and I hope this will lead to negotiations with the Hamas government. I remind myself that the British in pre-state Israel also considered the Israeli political groups terrorist entities.


With hopes for a fair and lasting peace for both of our peoples,


Amir Terkel"

The text you are quoting:

This from an Israeli living in Tel Aviv:


"I wear many hats. I’m a dad, a videographer, a Jewish Israeli, a veteran. But I’m telling you my story, and asking you to forward this email and ask your friends to sign this letter to President Obama about US military aid to Israel, as a human being, as a citizen of the world, and as someone who deeply cares about the people in Israel and Gaza.


My wife, kids and I live just on the outskirts of Tel Aviv, Israel, where life during the past weeks for the most part carried on as normal. 


There were four sirens in the eight days of the Israeli operation, which means we had to move into a room in the house that has reinforced concrete walls. In our case, we went down to our apartment building’s bomb shelter for 10 minutes—as far as I know every apartment building in Israel has one. Fortunately, the kids took it well and were not scared.


In the south close to the border with Gaza where I’ve been working, life is much, much different.  People who could do so temporarily moved northward and stayed with family and friends out of rocket and mortar range.


Being outdoors when the siren goes off in the south is quite scary. Most rockets are relatively small, up to 12 pounds of explosives, and cannot bring down a building. But in the open space they splatter lots of metal fragments.


The bigger long distance rockets that were fired at lower intervals were the "Fajar" Rockets that carry 90 lbs of explosives. They cannot bring down a building but can destroy an apartment and killed 3 people in an apartment building. People in bomb shelters are considered to be safe.


And of course, the Iron Dome defense system reportedly destroyed 85% of rockets headed towards Israeli populated areas.


Still, in the south, the sirens went off many times a day and there was no school and no work because parents naturally wanted to be near their kids.


In contrast, in Gaza, the bombs dropped by the Israeli military ranged from 500 to 1,000 pounds, and in the past, also 2,000 pounds.  Ten or 20 times more powerful than those which they have sent our way.


When I’d go to our bomb shelter with my family, I would think of families like mine in Gaza. They had no sirens, no Iron Dome defense, no shelters, and because they are essentially trapped, nowhere to go.


But mostly, I thought about how terrified I'd be during the bombings.


There is no safe place to go in Gaza.


It wouldn’t matter if buildings had shelters since the Israeli bombs often flatten the building they hit. There's literally nothing left.  


I want you to ask your friends to sign this letter to President Obama asking him to make aid to Israel contingent on not using it to target civilians because there is no military solution. Not for Palestinians. Not for us Israelis.


To reach a true peace for all of us, Israeli and Palestinian, our governments must choose diplomacy over more bombing. The Israeli government must end its terrible siege of the Palestinians.


And the US must stop sending my government weapons they know will be used to violate the law and harm civilians.


I am happy we've reached a cease-fire and I hope this will lead to negotiations with the Hamas government. I remind myself that the British in pre-state Israel also considered the Israeli political groups terrorist entities.


With hopes for a fair and lasting peace for both of our peoples,


Amir Terkel"


Tonyterritet, Dec 6, 2012 @ 10:13
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Re: Israel vs. Gaza, take 2
Post 11

Yes, I agree fully


The US must stop helping the criminal goverment of Israel, which is responsible of gross violations of international humanitarian law and mass killings

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Yes, I agree fully


The US must stop helping the criminal goverment of Israel, which is responsible of gross violations of international humanitarian law and mass killings


Juan D, May 31, 2013 @ 15:12
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