and now ukraine said it authorized it's soldiers to respond with fire in certain situations, following the death of 1 of its soldiers by russian troops:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/Conflict-with-Russia-has-entered-military-stage-Ukraine-warns/articleshow/32256866.cms

come on fellow political animals, surely there are some views here about the ukraine-russia topic?

Russia has lost Ukraine. As revenge he takes Crimea.

i don't think it's just plain revenge. it's more about economical interests, establishing internal political power, positioning russia as a global power house, and sending a strong message to other former east block countries who might dream about looking west instead of east.

its amazing to me how easily it was done though, with only the us and germany pushing back hard. 

I have been there 3 years ago. People feel russian. Major part of them have russian passport. Russian flag was everywhere. On balconies, in taxis. But of course Crimea is part of Ukraine. 

ok, but that doesn't make any difference to the overall point that russia just decided to take over a part of a different country without any legal basis for it.

You are totally right

Several politicians called the Ukraine topic "the most serious crisis in Europe since WW2", yet it gets nearly zero posts here. The Syria crisis, with over 100K people killed by their own brothers, gets nearly posts here. But any post about the smallest thing happening in Israel gets tens of angry anti-Israel posts here...

Like 1938-39, when Hitler annexed the Sudetenland under the pretext of needing to protect the local German population and during the run-up to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

There is an interesting article about the Baltics who look to NATO for protection. Though this countries might not have enought commodities...

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21599828-baltics-look-nato-protection-echoes-sudetenland

I agree: the current situation really has obvious similarities with how WW2 began. 

What else could the west do now tho? They imposed sanctions, that's great. Soldiers on the ground is something that's not an option for now, Obama said. What else can they do?

so the West is tightenening the pressure: NATO suspended all cooperation with Russia.

NATO head says the current crisis is biggest threat to Europe security in the previous generation:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/01/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html

It's fascinating (and scary) to watch how this will play out. It's like chess on a global scale, except that each scenario here can cost thousands of lives and suffering. 

Ari:

Great, this is your chance then to share a different narative of the situation. Honestly, I would love to hear it and learn more about this.

The narative I know, which indeed is based on Western media, is this (in its simplified form):

1. Crimea is recognized by intl law as part of Ukraine, despite the fact most of its citizens are pro-russian.

2. Ukraine had a pro-russian prez.

3. The pro-russia prez was outsted by his own people, and a new pro-west interim govnt took over.

4. While this was happening, the people of Crim were in no danger: there were no rethnic riots or deaths there.

5. The week after the pro-russian prez was outsted, russia sent troops to Crimea. The troops took over Ukraine bases without a fight, because it was clear to every Ukranian soldier that he would lose and die if he fought back. 

6. Russia then announced that the criteria for deciding if Crimea is part of Ukrain will no longer be intl law, but rather a local referndum.

7. As expected, the referndum said "Russia", so Russia took over Crim.

8. The fact there was no bloodshed, and that the referendum said "Russia", is not relevant to the main point: Russia took over a piece of another country by force, not by law.

I'm not inherently pro Russian or pro Ukranian, I'm really just amazed to see the situation evolve. And from the narative I see around me, it's clear Russia acted by force and against recognized borders. If there's another narative, I'd love to learn about it.

true, would be interesting to hear the russian version of things.

@ari: come on!

@ari: thanks, good post! not sure i agree with all the facts you state and with their interpertation, but it's still very constructive to get another side of the story with local background. spasiba.

let me ask you this:

today i read that more parts of eastern ukraine are staging pro-russia demonstrations and calling for their areas to be annexed to russia. where do you draw the line then? 

Eastern ukraine is clearly part of one country : Ukraine

And where on earth was that until 24 August / 1 December 1991?

i don't see how that's relevant from a legal pov, it's only relevant from an emotional pov.

at some point Crimea became a legal part of ukraine, and that move was done legally and without any violence, and was recognized by the whole world incl russia (who initiated the move!). 

what is the legal basis for russia deciding it can now change its mind and take back the land by force despite ukraine's central government not agreeing to that?

I'm not a lawyer or a specialist, but as far as I remember, the chronology was as follows:

- on 11 March 2014, the Supreme Council of Crimea and the Sevastopol City Council jointly adopted the following Declaration of Independence from Ukraine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_of_the_Republic_of_Crimea and announced a referendum on the further status of the Autonomous Republic (join Russia or restore the 1992 Constitution with enlarged autonomy within the Ukraine) to be held on 16 March 2014

- following the results of the Referendum, Russia recognized the sovereign and independant state of Crimea:
http://eng.kremlin.ru/news/6884

- on 18 March, Crimea and Sevastopol applied for admission in the Russian Federation as a new subject with the status of a republic.This request and the related Draft Agreement were forwarded to the Constitutional Court (with a request to forward their compliance with the Constitution http://eng.kremlin.ru/acts/6906) and subsequently submitted to the State Duma for Ratification.

I am sure Ari could provide more details.

i'm not a lawyer either, but know enough to know that certain areas of a country x can't just vote to move to country y. especially if country y threatens country x about it.

it's like citizens of geneva deciding tomorrow to hold a vote about leaving ch and becoming part of france, and france sending troops into gva to support the vote. 

anyway, today putin interviewed on the topic and was open on the point that his approach to crimea was in large part driven by nato expanding more and more into eastern europe. there's always a bigger motive behind things...

This post is a very good example of tipical Russian propaganda spread all over in Russian media and in the Estern Ukraine where people have been taught to hate Ukraine.

Do you imagine a Swiss calling the country where he was born and raised "an artifical state"?

Mark Spencer, if you are interested to know more about the topic I'm happy to discuss and to share the opinion of a REAL representative of Ukrainian people.

And you, Ari (what is your Ukrainian or Russian name? if you have one) can join the discussion. I have many questions to "millions of people" like you.

Slava Ukraїni!

Thank to courageous people Ukraine is going to be free independent democratic state. 

Da, Slava Ukraini ! 

Looks quite convincing (sorry for RT):

Ari's post seems well-argumented but if you look close, it's full of whatever the Russian propaganda tries to sell to the world. Everytime I discuss the problematics with a Russian person, they say: too much CNN bro! Well, Polish press is quite close to the conflict and we have our own sources. No USA spies/ Goebbelses there (even though the former do tend to pop out everywhere these days!).

Pawel

strange im Ukrainian and I dont know knowbody feel or felt russian there , moreover im from east part of Ukraine and what they are trying to show to russian media that east ukrainians feel also russian i can say it is complit  bullshit ...... well my mother toung is russian but it is doesnt mean i wanna be part of Russia and them im russian 

and when you saw russian flags 3 years ago in Krimea?))) what u talk about 

probably u were in Sevastopol where the russian people came with families for work ....there is many is true, althought  i was there and didnt see any flags 

moreover we never had this problem about russian or russians speakers in Ukraine NEVER EVER... i am telling u as ukrainian ...

it is MR Putin created this propoganda and it seems to be very succesful but we know the truth 

very good example about France ))

My opinion concerning Crimea and about phrase “people called the russian troops by themselves”

(hope you understand my english)

I remember very well how is started.

As you know we fought for our independence with our previous government and we had strike,fight ,impeachment, etc..we wanted to be part of EU.

And in one day after 100 people were killed in Kiev by Ukrainian police, who still claim that they did not do that (but this is another story), all of the sudden the day after in Crimea appeared some militants wearing special form without any identifications, they just were walking around and scared civilian people by their presence. Nobody understood who is this and what they did in Crimea !

Many Ukrainian people and militants /police asked them “who are you” ? (u can see in youtube this episodes, well if u understand russian lang) but the didn’t get any answer back... the order of Putin was to be silent at the beginning..... Nobody called them !! they just appeared everywhere......

While we concentrated to the horrible situation which had appeared  between our people and government, Russians just attacked us , knowing that we are weak and that time unable to respond properly as we didn't expect this from our "brothers", Moreover, we were not enough prepared in terms of army, weapons, military training etc, whereas on their side is different story ....they had this plan trough the years....

Well it was obviously that Russia would never accept that we split up with them as we have a lot of corrupt - money between our countries .... it is seems that Russia so rich and cool but without Ukrainian’s support they wouldn’t be that rich as they are....(well Moscow,Piter) Russian people too naive to believe in that, because they put in their minds that they are the best and invincible but there is big propaganda ...all media controlled by Putin’s people and bought by them as well (informatics war) 

We have a lot of things in Ukraine which Putin would not let them go, he is ready to fight with all of the world However, he has his target and he wouldn't step back and the question  is WHY?? ......but now we are not about this....

So, then they did another step in Crimea....

they were pretending that they are defending russian /russian speakers ....but here is question .....defend from WHO???? especially in Crimea ...far from capital city where was the mess....there was quiet situation always while the fuss....

Now then , what they did at first of course they attacked TV towers to wash people`s brains ...it is the first thing what they always have done, even in east Ukraine now...because the strongest power is to affect on people’s minds with their propaganda, that is the best weapon ever....

Then they paid to a lot of people for fake strikes and doing the mess ....unfortunately We and Russia have a lot of silly people who can sale they own family just to get some money to buy drugs or vodka or just because there is bad life and lack of everything and small salaries... 

Then, people around were shouting Russia!!!!! mostly of them came from Russia .... then of course all this influence by TV media, fake strikes etc and people from Crimea automatically involved in this situation but at the beginning they didn't even had this stupid idea to be Russia, Although not all people of course! 

Some of the faces which was shouting Russiiiaaa in the Crimea have been seen in another east cities with the same words...so here is conclusion...

Concerning “referendum” : 

Refer to Ukrainian’s low u can not do referendum without Ukrainian’s authorization which means REFERENDUM is fake and people who is friends with their minds the didn’t go to this "referendum", only people who supported this idea  went there... then they said 80% of people wanted to be part of Russia ! would say 80% of 20% of population which went to fake referendum on that time ....so here is the answer....it is call occupation!!

Moreover, they attacked and occupied the administration of Crimea with the masks and guns, threw away the ukrainian gov. from there and their positions and they call this LEGAL REFERENDUM...it must be a joke...(all these you can follow in social sites...youtube etc...).

This is clear violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity....

And all of the sudden they have found the oil in black sea ...NO comment

So, now the problems how to go there to the demi-island? the answer is East Ukraine !! because this plan with the bridge etc it is not really excellent as it is take ages and plus there is bad natural condition for build....

of course is not only the reason to have east ukraine ( Coal, weapon, rocket /weapon in Dnepropetrovsk "Yuzhmash", motors for aviation Zaporozhye, steel,metal,agricultural,engineering,many factories, electricity, water for Crimea..etc

Conclusion , nobody is recognizing the  Crimea as Russia but they don’t mind as long as they do!

And they know everything from Russia they know opinions of Ukrainian people, what is happened there etc...but we are Ukrainians who living there and which friends in the fields we dont know a sh....t we are stupid and watch TV propaganda and they are NOT))) 

In addition ,the completely forget that that time when Crimea be came part of Ukraine we also gave away ours lands (presents) but nobody mentioned this ...this is  just forgotten....

The most ridiculous thing what i have red recently that Russian Government   declare that if one day Ukrainian gov. will try to get back island , then they will considering this as a assault and territorial integrity...after all they manage to say that ...unbelievable 

In my opinion Russians and Ukrainians ethnically, mentally, culturally and appearance the same people , we just called differently , Although after all this sh...t what  they put on as i change my opinion 

Difficult topic, everybody lies! Initiated by the CIA and NGO's fueling the fire in Kiev .. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=12&v=imuRAjM2Yj4

Some lie (much) more than others. And I have no problems to say that the Russian are the "some" - as simple as that. I do not mean Putin or Kreml, since he enjoys more than 80% of support among his fellow countrymen.
I have not watched the movie above. But even if it was CIA and NGOs who initiated the coup of Maidan (I disagree), I seriously do not care. Because if it was CIA who in any way supported the creation of Solidarnosc in the 80s in Poland (which was not the case), my comment on it would be "thank you CIA for having supported our efforts for becoming a state of rule of law and democracy". And I do believe the situation was quite similar to Ukraine in the beginning of 2014.
Pawel

I hear you Pawel, but the situation here is that not everybody in the Ukraine wants the same thing, west Ukraine wants to be part of the EU, where the eastern part feels more love for Russia.

So I don't think there are lots of simularities between the Polish uprising and the Ukrainian one, in the Ukraine one uprising is hailed as just while the other in the east is called.. criminal.. 

For me that is hard to understand, I have good friends in the Ukraine they live in Kiev and during the brutal start of the uprising we've had daily contact for hours on the situation on the ground. They as well were fed up with the governement and their corrupt practises. Just not sure that by kicking out their elected 'though corrupt' governement and replacing them by a US puppet governement is a good thing to keep the balance of power between the east and the west.

Very well Sandro, I understand that the East is closer to the Russia. This is a result of many factors, there is no space here for detailing the historical, cultural and other reasons.

I will try to put in a concise manner how I see the world and Ukraine's situation. Of course, you might not agree.

When it comes to democracy and the rule of law, I choose them above the authocracy and the absence of the rule of law.

The Ukrainian which are pro-Russian simply do not know that what they choose is the authocracy and the absence of the rule of law. Because this is what Russia is. Such Ukrainians either never had any contact with the real democracy and the rule of law and/or follow the Russian (and local oligarch) aggressive propaganda. These Ukrainians simply do not know better.

In other words, in my opinion choosing Russia or the Russian way results from ignorance.

Of course, I am not saying choosing the western side is paradise - look at Poland, most of the biggest companies and banks are owned by international conglomerates. But yes, I choose that above Russia where even a bigger part is owned by individuals (so what if this capital "stays in Russia"), this on the background of an unhealthy economy living out off natural ressources.

Now, as I said, the wrong choice done by some Ukrainians results from ignorance. In such therefore case I support the illegal coup which followed a bloody attempt to quench a revolt and which aims at bringing democracy and the rule of law notwithstanding the opinion of the ignorant part expressed in the previous parlamentary elections. In the same time, let us bear in mind that their rights were not violated and nobody threatened them.

I do not see the reason why you call the new government "US puppet government". These people were chosen by the Ukrainians - not all of the Ukrainians, mostly by the unignorant ones as they were the ones who voted (far-right receiving only symbolic support), the ones who want change. The US were not so active in all this mess as you might have noticed by not-so-far-going support for the Ukraine in its war against pro-Russian fighters, mercenaries and Russian troops.

Finally, the goal here, is not to "keep the balance of power between the east and the west". It is to achieve a rule of law, democracy and economical success, to the point where only the stupid (no longer ignorant) will want the same regime which now holds sway in Russia.

Please forgive me I rarely use "in my opinion" and so on. I usually do when debating, but not on this subject. Also, I know a bunch of people, speaking Russian and Ukrainian, who go to Ukraine from Poland every couple of months with humanitarian aid and share with me their experience.

Pawel

Hi Pawel, I'm sure if you just google or have followed the news or.. watch the video I posted you can hear high politicians from the US talking about who they want and don't want in the Ukrainian governement. No the people did not vote for them.. they had no clue. 

I'm not attacking you or your opinion, I just post information that is widely available and as I stated in my first post, everybody lies.. its a dirty business and lots of money is involved. google the oil comanies who have a big big stake in this conflict and see what you think of that.

Looks like the unfortunate innocents are again the poor people from the country that really have nothing to say in this matter. 

p.s. rule of law only is valid for supporters of the US / EU line of thought? .. not everything that the Russians say is untrue Pawel. 

Nothing more to say on the topic, it will remain a dirty business instigated by foreign agents.. and yes maybe from both sides.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/washington-was-behind-ukraine-coup-obama-admits-that-us-brokered-a-deal-in-support-of-regime-change/5429142

Maybe a bit biast but some interesting points in the comments...http://rt.com/op-edge/243401-kolomoysky-private-army-ukraine-oil/

Oh guess what US vice president's son is doing in the Ukraine..

http://www.globalresearch.ca/company-in-which-us-vice-president-joe-bidens-son-is-director-prepares-to-drill-shale-gas-in-east-ukraine/5393403

Do you still think this was about the people... 

Some more interesting reads about the powers behind the puppet governement in the Ukraine..http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-06/fuck-eu-us-state-department-blasts-europe-revealed-alleged-mastermind-behind-ukraine

http://www.westernjournalism.com/revealed-joe-bidens-cocaine-using-navy-busted-son-now-working-huge-ukraine-company/

have fun, if you still think the US was in it for democracy and peace ha ha ha

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/05/14/hunter-bidens-new-job-at-a-ukrainian-gas-company-is-a-problem-for-u-s-soft-power/

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/06/ukraine-crisis-great-power-oil-gas-rivals-pipelines

People so wanted leave ex CCCP area and join Europe than happened what happened. Russia has clearly stolen Crimean territory with military troops and support. In the Donbass major part of people, yes, like in Crimea, are for Russia. Pity on Ukrainians and Tatars still living in Crimea, and for Ukrainians (by hearth) in Donbass. But things go pretty well for Ukraine I mean. To stay a russian sattelite was not the way to a bright future.

OMG!!! as i see u definitely influenced by russian media ) i was watching  just 4 minutes than i couldnt hanle more 
you know who were these people from Crimea which came to maidan? we call them TITUSHKI.

is a term for mercenary agents who supported the Ukrainian police force during the administration of Viktor Yanukovych, often posing as street hooligans with the express purpose of performing illegal acts.[1] The 'Titushki raid' is a widely used term in Ukrainian mass media and by the general public to describe street beatings, carjackings and kidnappings by unidentified men in civilian clothes from behind the lines of political rallies.[1] Titushky were employed by the Yanukovych government with a reported daily pay of 200 hryvnia.[1] Some of them were also suspected to be illegal formations of combat troops carrying concealed pistols.[1] Their aim was to intimidate and disperse demonstrations by opponents of the government, and attack participants and representatives of the media.

Titushky blend in with a crowd or mob and then instigate a violent fight. During the events in Ukraine in 2013-2014 known as Euromaidan, they became a collective term for provocateurs and thugs[2] hired by the Party of Regions[citation needed] and law enforcement agents in civilian clothing.[3][4][5] Supporters of President Yanukovich also used the term 'tituskhy' to refer to pro-opposition thugs.[6]

so everything what have been shown on this video it is just russian propaganda it is not like it was in reality
well if we speak about anti maidan , personally me when i was there many times I never seen people who was against anti maidan except Titushki from all part of Ukraine who were paid for that u can find a lot of video where they even confess
but i can imagine if russian people watch this kind of vedio with russian explanations and fake interview than of course they are just believe in what they see....

but obviously we have some people who wasn't happy about maidan 

though they didn't really appear there in maidan because there were many people who were supported maidan included me ......SO so so many ...... even with tears on the faces, however Russian people still believe that USA paid to strike )) paid thousands people

they just can't presume that is possible to be so patriotic and to fight for our independence... they think we just follow the USA , it is in what they wanted believe 

What's the difference between Bashar al Assad and Poroshenko?... not that much, they both kill their own civilians, imagine if Yanukovich no matter how corrupt he was would have used the same methods against the people at Maidam..who wanted change.. firing rockets at civilians, shelling them with Howitzers!! sorry but the man is a war criminal! and the EU supports him, what a joke.

p.s. the enclosed video is not from RT or any other Russian propoganda channel but from Vice News, CNN and the BBC.. 

I can really suggest you watch all 15 parts that are to be found online to broaden your horizon on what is playing in the East.

And yes in the end it's all about the money, oil and power.

If you are interested how influencing regime change takes place, please find enclosed a very interesting read from the university of Helsinki; http://www.academia.edu/1068864/Russia_the_US_the_Others_and_the_101_Things_to_Do_to_Win_a_Colour_Revolution_Reflections_on_Georgia_and_Ukraine

Some really good dialogue between students from the Ukraine and students from Russia and the Crimea.

And p.s. there never was a death toll of 100 people on Maidan in one day... just saying...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_during_Euromaidan

but maybe you remember it differently being in the turmoil I guess is rather devestating, just like the people in the east are now suffering from the Ukrain's armies shelling..

The Crimean Tatar ATR TV channel was shut down on April 1 because it did not get a license from the Russian telecommunications regulator to continue broadcasting on the annexed peninsula.

www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-post-plus/crimean-tatar-tv-channel-goes-silent-385042.html

Hi Sandro,

Politics is dirty business. I will not comment on the money involved in it. But even if we say that the US are interested only in the money (and Russians are interested in Ukraine's well-being) and that is why US initiated the Maidan (which is not true), even then, what the Ukrainians fight for is legitimate, whether they know about the presumed evil schemes of US agents or not. The Ukrainian fight for true democracy, the rule of law and self-sustaining healthy economy. And you did not comment on me saying that they did not have it under the former president and they will not get it following Russia's example. They won't and if you say they will I indeed see no point in discussing further this subject as that would mean you simply contradict the reality which you should know if you ever dealt with Russian authorities, police etc.
We, the Polish, managed to avoid the oligarch reality and to steer in the direction of the West. It was not given but I thank God that the Russians do not consider us "brothers" like they do the Ukrainian (see video you posted). Because I'd hate to find Poland, and myself, in a Russian ribs-crushing hug of brotherly love.

Guys:

Just to let you know that as a guy who's only aware of the mainstream's media narative of the Ukraire-Russia story, it's interesting for me to read your comments and get a better understanding of both sides. Thanks!

I think is useless to debate here as i see some people already has brain washing and it is too frustrating
I recommend you to listen Ukrainian opinions, whatever you think, we understand better this situation, it is our country and we worry , we more into this trouble in the beginning, Russia they have their own country and they just presume and impose their opinions.....

Hi Perevala, 

I understand what you're saying. For me as an outsider tho, it's real interesting to hear both sides. My objective is not to decide who is right and who is wrong, just to understand how each side sees things. 

Hi all, I followed this news from both sides. And as I said in my first comment.. "everybody lies" and unfortunately that is true.

While following all the latest moves in the Ukraine it became painfully clear that from all sides the propoganda is just horrible.

Who is right and who is wrong, in my book everybody who targets innocent people are guilty so it is in this case both. There is never ever a reason to kill innocent bystanders.

So please, debate is always good because you will see that we are all fed a load of misinformation. And just because you are from the Ukraine does not mean you get all the information. I've heard all sides and still I'm in the middle of who is at fault. I think in the end its a huge cluster mistake from all sides and again the innocent are always the poor people who get hurt in the process.

Again I have to disagree, dear Sandro.

The fault is mainly on the Russian side.

As for misinformation, I'd say that from the Ukrainian /Western side, we do not hear all the truth; from the Russian side, not only we do not hear all the truth, but are constantly fed with outrageous lies - eg. the case of this actress who played already several roles in Russian propaganda news, including a role of the "mother of a crucified boy".

And from my own experience - in the recent year I have read tons of posts in various Polish political forums, critisizing West, Polish pro-Ukrainian politicians and gloryfiyng Russia or Putin. These persons wrote in Polish and pretended to be Polish but, knowing some Russian, I could tell that some semantics or wording were Russian-like. These people Sandro are paid-for soldiers of Russian propaganda campaigns. It's just a first and small example to what extent Russia wants to influence our view of things - after it has already moulded the opinion and clouded the reason of its own population.

And I am sorry to say it in a rational, polite discussion, but you are this propaganda's victim, Sandro.

:-) 

No problem Kruljungli I don't take it personal.

But do you have any idea how many people are paid on social media by the FBI? Or any idea how NGO's are planted in countries to support oposing views and actions to influence local politics?

I'm sure I'm a victim of propoganda and as I said, everybody lies :-)

Have a great weekend,

Sandro

Thank you, have a good weekend (or Eastern, as the case may be :)  )

Pawel