This is almost worse...

http://www.thelocal.de/national/20110511-34961.html

Another reason not to go to Bavaria...

good question ariel.  i think anyone guilty of war crimes should be prosecuted regardless of their age. 

@translator: that is mental re Klass Carel Faber. how does bavaria get away with this?

Germany does not allow extradition of its citizens, even those who were granted citizenship by Hitler for serving in the SS.

This year is the 50th anniversary of the Adolf Eichmann trial. Fairly recently released documents show that the West German government knew where Eichmann was at least 8 years before he was captured by the Israelis.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/bild-report-west-germany-knew-where-eichmann-was-in-1952-1.335955

I think it would have been better to have said 'anyone reasonably suspected' rather than guilty but I'm sure that's what you meant.  In that same vein it is interesting and encouraging to see what is going on in Argentina wrt those guilty of disappearing so many during the reign of the Generals.  Also it seems Spanish judge Balthazar is having trouble going after Francoists.  Will post the Democracy Now video when I find it (from yesterday or the day before yesterday).  Though we only have news reports to go on right now, the evidence and charges as well as verdict sound rather flimsy to me and make me think of show trial (but I'll reserve judgement on that for now until more info comes out - if ever given there will be an appeal) (for whom?).

Judge Baltasar Garzon not judge Baltasar!

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/12/spanish_judge_baltasar_garzn_on_bin

During a Washington, D.C. conference at the Hudson Institute, a conservative U.S. think tank, on 23 September 2006, referring to Pope Benedict XVI's comments on Islam and violence, Aznar asked why Muslims had not apologized for occupying Spain for 800 years as Al-Andalus. He then called the Alliance of Civilizations initiative "stupid." His reference to apologies was a response to the demonstrations asking the Pope to apologize. One PP official clarified Aznar's speech by saying the Prime Minister thought it is pointless to apologize for historical events.[31][32] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Mar%C3%ADa_Aznar#cite_note-30

I should have asked/added whether all mistakes are not historical.  Reminds me of the joke about the judge who asks the accused 'You are accused of the murder of your wife and children; how do you plead'?  The accused 'your honour I don't want to dwell on the past but prefer to look to the future'.

The antisemitisme of some people here gets so old I wonder if their grandparents were standing guard at the camps. Shame on you.

Yes there are bad things going on in the Middle East but come on... why all the time the Israel / Gaza situation. If you are so hung up on that go over there and throw stones at soldiers or help fire rockets at Israel.

# tantrum mode off#

Aznar: http://www.counterpunch.org/navarro03192004.html

You'd think a site with such a great name would not be so completely lacking in credibility. The last time I checked out that site, one of the authors called a humanitarian worker a 'motherfucker liar'. 

If I wanted to hear people being called that, I'd go to some bar in Paquis and listen to a lover's spat. 

My grandfather was gassed in WWI and so I don't wish to throw stones or hurl rockets (sic).  Just some adult debate and some humour along the way please.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/semite

Calling someone a mother fucker is not necessarily evidence of lack of credibility - perhaps taste (according to one's own predjudice).  Liars exist (mother fuckers or not) n'est ce pas?  Shoot the message not the meesengers.

Its not at all 'adult debate' when you post an inflammatory picture and then scamper to the moral high ground when you're called out. 

Its not funny either. Not for the Israelis, not for the Palestinians, and not for anyone else. Perhaps its time to try a different brand of humor?

My bad - David posted that picture, not you. Although I see you liked it. Still, apologies. 

In reply to your question I believe it is right to prosecute a 91 year old from crimes committed during WW2.  And even though he's going to be released the fact that he was found guilty brought some relief to to his victim's familities.  And that's already something.

Why did you choose that particular picture?  I can think of at least a dozen war criminals walking on the loose today?

Dear David,

Everybody in this forum is certainly free to express an opinion and I have no doubt that you're certainly far more inteligent than someone who uses insults and the "anti-semitic" label as a single reply.  I just think that your choice of a picture was innapropriate as we were discussing a Nazi war criminal.A matter of sensibility.  But that is just my opinion of course.

yes, it is ironic that Garzón, who happens to be a hero for so many people in Argentina and CHile particularly, it is going to face trial in his home country for investigating the crimes of the "franquismo".  The thing is that the Spanish' Right today (PP) cannot accept the crimes that were committed by their parents and grandparents.  Even though the transition from the dictatorship to a democracy was successful and it is being followed as a model by countries in a similar situtation, the "franquistas" were never bothered.  One would think that today, almost 40 years after Franco's death, the country was ready to face its unpleasant past.  It seems that the ones chasing Garzón do not see it that day.

I meant.....do not see it that way.

Viva Garzón!!!

hahahaha, how pathetic of Aznar.  Why am I surprised though?

Poor Aznar.  The 700 hundred years of the Arab Occupation of Spain were the best years his country has ever had and he does not even realize it!!

What '"inflammatory picture" did I post?  Someone referred to antisemitism and grandparents.  I fail to see the antisemitism in this post and I defended the honour of my grandfather,  No taking the moral high ground.  The only picture I saw was a cartoon depiction of an IDF soldier.  It is well  known IDF soldiers shoot unprovoked on Palestinian children and on peaceful protesters with tear gas cannisters to the head and bulldozed over Rachel Corrie.  Where's the moral high ground?

Perhaps you might try a different brand of argumentation.

Well, that's the interesting bit.  If people can be so happy to see Nazi war criminals brought to justice yet fail to see the wrondoing of the state of Israel it could be because they are entangled in a web of transmitted traumas that prevents them from seeing right to wrong.

The film "Waltz with Bashir" has some very interesting observations on your point, Nefertiti although I do not make an equivalency between the two situations.

There is a problem somewhere... how come this guy had been free for so long???

Hey Ariel, 

Nice topic! I think it was right to prosecute him, and also right to release him. 

It was right to prosecute him cos - as Nefrertiti says - it gives some relief to the victims, and sends a message to the world. 

It was right to release him cos he's 91, and what he did was 70 years ago, and you got to have some heart even for monsters like him. He's now a convicted nazi war criminal - the life he'll have left, and the life of his family, will always be marked. 

Nir

Well reasoned? Very far from it. I stopped responding to this and other threads because there is no well reasoned responses coming from you, and frankly, I don't need the abuse in my inbox. 

Dear David,

You seem so keen to post on human rights, war crimes... I just wanted to inform you that there is a Tibet thread in the forum. 

Regards,

Sarah

DavidR:

"Well reasoned reply"? Surely you don't mean your own reply?

Your posts are some of the least reasoned I've seen on glocals, cos regardless of the thread's subject your posts nearly always have just 1 thrust: Israel is bad. There's rarely sound arguments or counter arguments, there's no acknowledging other angles, there's no taking the discussion forward. There's just a blind statements. That's not "replies" bro, that's just saying "this is black, and that's it". 

Nir

I would agree in principle with your assertion about the correctness of prosecuting a 91 year old for crimes committed in WWII. However, there are some factors that need to be considered, even given the fact that most (all?) of us do not have access to the court records and might not be in a position to judge the quality/reliability or relevance of the 'evidence'.

Memory is a funny thing and even in relatively short term psychological experiments, memory can fail miserably with subjects memories changing radically within short periods of time. Therefore to rely on the memory of older people (including the accused who if guilty will certainly have a 'limited' and selective memory one can assume), so many years after WWII, to remember 'facts' and faces is rather dubious in my opinion.

I understand from reading the media that there was an identification card (supplied by the former Soviet Union?). I believe there was some controversy about the reliabiliity of this document. Should we trust the suppliers of the identification card? Should we trust the forensic 'experts' as to the veracity of the card? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Demjanjuk#Trial_in_Germany

Also worth noting to put this case in perspective is the fact that it is long ongoing and has taken some interesting twists. In 1986 he was convicted in Israel of being Ivan the Terrible only to have this sentence overturned by the Israeli Supreme Court in 1993.

To say this has brought relief to the family of victims is a poor rationale for the trial and outcome. Many wrongly convicted in Ameriica (mostly if not exclusively black) have brought 'relief' to the victims' families. One current case is that of Mumia Abu-Jumal where a racist judge, misinstructed the jury and committed many other procedural errors, witnesses recanted their testimony, witnesses changed testimony contradicting themselves, photos of the crime scene sidewalk do not support the shooting of multiple bullets as no traces were found on the sidewalk and reconstructions show that such traces (damage to the sidewalk by bullets missing the victim) would be evident.

Here also the victim's wife is relieved that Mumia was convicted and refuses to accept the possiblity of a mistrial. If innocent, then Mumia and Demanjuk seem to have been subjected to some horrendous treatment in order to bring relief to the victims. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumia_Abu-Jamal

While I ignored this post naively thinking the Administrator of the site had banned this person because of his insulting words, I see to my surprise not only he was not banned but he's been thanked!!!

Well Smile2sandro, has it occurred to you that "some people here"  might have had grandparents that were not guards at the camps but inmates?

You fail to see the connection, Nir.

The well-reasoned response is actually on the subject of such fruitless discussions here, when one is overwhelmed by well-reasoned responses.

I don't have much to contribute upon Demjanjuk, other than what has aleady been said.

On the general subject of War Criminals however, I have an exceptional link to share. This is the story of an unlikely 21st century friendship between a retired Indian Brigadier and a modern Pakistani counterpart, who reportedly shot and killed the former's son.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arun_Khetarpal

The summary I've provided above doesn't come up until the Epilogue, so if you find everything else boring, please click here.

PS: Before anyone accuses me - I am in no way related to this soldier.

I'm not disappointed. I think Nir has a right to his own opinions just as any other user of this site.

If you were to own an expat site, which filled up with radical quotes from 19th century against your kingdom, I'm pretty sure you'd react the same way.

Now, only if Nir exercises his moderator rights to delete your comment & Nefertiti's comments and increases the font size of smile2sandro's post, I'd be disappointed.

I do not see why one would put the two in the same category, frankly. Why compare wrongly convicted African Americans with "wrongly convicted" individuals who have apparently falsified their applications for naturalization and who appear to have served as concentration camp guards?

You posted that the Israeli Supreme Court overturned the case against Demjanjuk, while neglecting to cite that same court concluded that it was likely that Demjanjuk probably served as a guard at the Sobibor extermination camp. 

"The 1949 statement of another Wachmann (Denilchenko), identified Demjanjuk in passing as someone who served with him at Sobibor in 1944 (a year after the camp was razed) and noted he had been born the same year as himself (1923). In 1979, Denilchenko made another statement adding that Demjanjuk was three years older than himself and had been in Sobibor in 1943. Demjanjuk's Trawniki certificate also implies that he served at Sobibor, as do the German orders of March 1943 posting the Trawniki unit to the area."

The article goes on to state that the Israeli Attorney General decided against a second prosecution on the grounds that double jeopardary (being tried twice for the same crime) would probably be attached to the case among other issues.  The Germans prosecuted Demjanjuk based upon evidence from various sources. The sentence was 6 years not death in a gas chamber as experienced by the victims in Sobibor.

War criminals when found guilty should be shot in public...but as we all know the 'winning side' determines who the war criminals are

Well Israel has mastered the victim role...the state must have been created just to piss off the Arabs and keep the region unstable...remove financial, political and military support from the US and you would see a more reasonable country

@Leo - I deleted your post because of the language you used.

Oded